Cause verses Allows

[Eric B]

God's grace and mercy is "eternal". Always was, always will be. No beginning, no end.

Still waiting for answers to my questions;

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?

How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?

God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam? Adam would have to just accept it like a good puppet without any mind to think OR Adam would say to God "what is mercy Lord?"

Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?

Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?

You're still making these attributes ends in themselves.

The question has no answer, evidenced by:

"I see no reason why God could not show mercy another way". God did it the best way, the perfect way and I would say the only way. His ways are far above our ways.

And there it is. We can't understand it. the only difference, is that you build a further premise, which leads to more contradictions (God caused sin), and then only plead ignorance when questioned why. So I just take it back a step and say you can't know even that much. All of these versions of divine determinism interprets the scriptures in light of preconceived premises.

There is no other way I could love and appreciate God more. None. God performed the perfect way to reveal His eternal love to His creation. Adam was created to fail. Jesus Christ is glorified. Perfect plan, So perfect. Praise Him!

Are you sure you don't know why Marcia?

It is written all throughout the scriptures.......to reveal Himself and glorify His name!

If you or any other man can understand and articulate that much, then His ways must be our ways. Of course, you know all of the other possible combinations of events and ways to do things in the uiverse, and that none were even equal to this one (even if we can't say they would be better).

 

[steaver]

You're still making these attributes ends in themselves.

I honestly have no idea what "ends in themselves" means to you. You will have to explain further.

The question has no answer, evidenced by: "His ways are far above our ways."

Sure they do. It's just hard to swallow for most of us.

1) How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?
Answer; He coudn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

2) How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?
Answer; He couldn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

3) God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam?
Answer; Nothing. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

4) Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?
Answer; He couldn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

5) Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?
Answer; Adam becomes as God knowing both good and evil.

And there it is. We can't understand it.

We can't or we won't? It is written plainly in Genesis, Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

the only difference, is that you build a further premise, which leads to more contradictions (God caused sin),

Which brings us back to the OP, Cause verses Allows. Either way, God sovereignly in control of the situations to bring glory to His name.

and then only plead ignorance when questioned why.

I did?

So I just take it back a step and say you can't know even that much. All of these versions of divine determinism interprets the scriptures in light of preconceived premises.

Here is what I know Eric, Adam had no knowledge of good and evil. Have you read this much? Then you know as much as I do but for some reason reject it.

If you or any other man can understand and articulate that much, then His ways must be our ways.

Are you saying God's plan is not a perfect plan? Do you believe God had other choices, kicked it around, and then decided on the plan He put forth?

You are basically saying that the plan we are in could not have been the only way nor could it have been the perfect way. Even though it is the plan God chose. Remember, God chose it, but you think it might not be the best way or the only way?

Of course, you know all of the other possible combinations of events and ways to do things in the uiverse, and that none were even equal to this one (even if we can't say they would be better).

Eric...... GOD chose this plan and put it forth! Can it be anything other than PERFECT??

:jesus:

 

[swaimj]

Now what scripture has informed you that Adam knew God more intimately before the fall?

Steaver, the test you set up for me with this statement causes your own argument to fail. You have a few logical arguments that you are using to make your case that are built upon some theological assumptions, but you are not providing us with direct scripture that states what you are arguing for.

Do I have a direct scriptural statement that demonstrates what I am arguing for? No. But if that is what is required then you and I both should simply shut up because God does not directly give answer to these questions. In fact, if the book of Job teaches anything, it teaches that God has his own reasons for doing things that he does not reveal to us and He may not even reveal them in eternity!

Having said that, here are two elements that I find in scripture that I think are pretty clear that Adam had a more intimate fellowship with God prior to the fall than he had afterward.

First, before the fall, God came as walked in the garden with Adam in the cool of the day and they had fellowship. Afterward, God came to Adam, not in fellowship, but in judgement. He passed judgement on Adam, Eve, and the serpent and barred all three from the place of fellowship that they had enjoyed--the garden.

Second, Paul teaches that, as to our relationship with God through Christ, "now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face". So, something is going to occur in the future that will give us greater knowledge, understanding, and fellowship with God than we have now. I assume that Adam's fellowship was closer prior to the fall to that future fellowship we will have than his fellowship was after the fall or our fellowship is now.

That's really my argument. It's that simple and that sparse. And it's really not my argument, it pretty much the view of every theologian that I have ever read.

 

[swaimj]

And, let me respond to these arguments:

1) How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?
Answer; He coudn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

2) How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?
Answer; He couldn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

3) God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam?
Answer; Nothing. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

4) Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?
Answer; He couldn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

5) Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?
Answer; Adam becomes as God knowing both good and evil.

I think the problem you are raising actually goes back one step.

Prior to sin entering into the world, did God's mercy exist?

How did God's mercy exist prior to it being exercised?

What would God's mercy and justice mean in the absence of sin?

If justice and mercy did not exist prior to sin, then was God incomplete and imperfect prior to sin?

And your last question as to how Adam could have known of mercy and justice before sin, I don't really know. However, I think the 4 preceding questions argue that God's mercy and justice DID exist prior to sin because they are a part of God's perfection. I think to argue for the necessity of sin in order for God to be God probably goes beyond the bounds of orthodoxy.

 

[Marcia]

And, let me respond to these arguments:

I think the problem you are raising actually goes back one step.

Prior to sin entering into the world, did God's mercy exist?

How did God's mercy exist prior to it being exercised?

What would God's mercy and justice mean in the absence of sin?

If justice and mercy did not exist prior to sin, then was God incomplete and imperfect prior to sin?

And your last question as to how Adam could have known of mercy and justice before sin, I don't really know. However, I think the 4 preceding questions argue that God's mercy and justice DID exist prior to sin because they are a part of God's perfection. I think to argue for the necessity of sin in order for God to be God probably goes beyond the bounds of orthodoxy.

Excellent points, swaimj! This articulates what I was partly trying to express but had not clarified enough in my own mind in order to do so.

 

[steaver]

Steaver, the test you set up for me with this statement causes your own argument to fail. You have a few logical arguments that you are using to make your case that are built upon some theological assumptions, but you are not providing us with direct scripture that states what you are arguing for.

Genesis 2:9 & 17. Adam was created with NO knowledge of good and evil. This is "direct" scripture related to my argument.

Do I have a direct scriptural statement that demonstrates what I am arguing for? No. But if that is what is required then you and I both should simply shut up because God does not directly give answer to these questions. In fact, if the book of Job teaches anything, it teaches that God has his own reasons for doing things that he does not reveal to us and He may not even reveal them in eternity!

Job teaches us the sovereinty of God to bless and to create evil for His purposes that we cannot always know.

First, before the fall, God came as walked in the garden with Adam in the cool of the day and they had fellowship. Afterward, God came to Adam, not in fellowship, but in judgement.

Not sure where you found this. From what I have read, Adam heard the voice of the Lord walking in the garden AFTER he had sinned. Could you give me scripture that says Adam and God walked together before the fall or that they had any kind of deep intimate relationship?

Gen 3:8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Second, Paul teaches that, as to our relationship with God through Christ, "now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face". So, something is going to occur in the future that will give us greater knowledge, understanding, and fellowship with God than we have now. I assume that Adam's fellowship was closer prior to the fall to that future fellowship we will have than his fellowship was after the fall or our fellowship is now.

True, however this does not equate to Adam having a more intimate relationship than we have even now with God. It is an assumption without any scriptural support at all.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

And, let me respond to these arguments:

I think the problem you are raising actually goes back one step.

Prior to sin entering into the world, did God's mercy exist?

.

Yes, we already agreed on this. God's attributes are eternal.

How did God's mercy exist prior to it being exercised?

God is eternal and His attributes likewise.

What would God's mercy and justice mean in the absence of sin?

My very point. What would God's love mean in the absence of creation?

If justice and mercy did not exist prior to sin, then was God incomplete and imperfect prior to sin?

No. We already agreed that God is perfect and complete....Eternal.

And your last question as to how Adam could have known of mercy and justice before sin, I don't really know. However, I think the 4 preceding questions argue that God's mercy and justice DID exist prior to sin because they are a part of God's perfection. I think to argue for the necessity of sin in order for God to be God probably goes beyond the bounds of orthodoxy.

I never argued any such thing. God is God without His creation.

You missed my entire argument. Sin does not make God complete, God chose to allow sin to reveal Himself to His creation and to glorify Jesus Christ.

God's plan, God is sovereign, God is perfect and His plan is perfect.

God's plan does not make Himself complete. God's plan reveals Himself, His attributes, to His creation and glorifies His Holy Name!

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

My very point. What would God's love mean in the absence of creation?

God's love meant something within the fellowship of the Trinity prior to creation.

Sin does not make God complete, God chose to allow sin to reveal Himself to His creation and to glorify Jesus Christ.

But your point has been, at least that is what I've understood, that it is only through sin that God's mercy could be understood. There is no way to know that.

 

[Eric B]

I honestly have no idea what "ends in themselves" means to you. You will have to explain further.

Sure they do. It's just hard to swallow for most of us.

1) How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's mercy?
Answer; He coudn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

2) How did Adam (pre-fall) know God's justice?
Answer; He couldn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

3) God could have told Adam that He is Mercy and Just. And what would this mean to Adam?
Answer; Nothing. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

4) Tell me how Adam could have understood what one of God's attributes is, mercy, without seeing or knowing of any need for such a thing?
Answer; He couldn't. Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

5) Adam would have to first have the knowledge of good and evil in order to comprehend mercy, grace and justice, even the greatest love of all, God dying for His friends. And how does Adam gain this knowledge? Sound familiar?
Answer; Adam becomes as God knowing both good and evil.

We can't or we won't? It is written plainly in Genesis, Adam had no knowledge of good and evil.

Which brings us back to the OP, Cause verses Allows. Either way, God sovereignly in control of the situations to bring glory to His name.

I did?

Here is what I know Eric, Adam had no knowledge of good and evil. Have you read this much? Then you know as much as I do but for some reason reject it.

Are you saying God's plan is not a perfect plan? Do you believe God had other choices, kicked it around, and then decided on the plan He put forth?

You are basically saying that the plan we are in could not have been the only way nor could it have been the perfect way. Even though it is the plan God chose. Remember, God chose it, but you think it might not be the best way or the only way?

Eric...... GOD chose this plan and put it forth! Can it be anything other than PERFECT??

:jesus:

"Too hard for most of us to swallow". This is what all determinists need to think on. They love to toss it out at their opponents, but considering this being a "perfect plan" of "GOOD NEWS", the fact that it is something that has to be "swallowed" really casts a question mark on it being good news.

The only answer I can see for this is that the paradox is a result of people trying to explain too much. And you yourself did acknowledge that we can't always know everything about why God does certain things. That's what I meant by "pleading ignorance". When asked why this "perfect plan" is something so admittedly a "hard doctrine" that it has to be "swallowed", the only answer is that His ways are higher than ours.
It's not we who "won't", but beyond a certain level, you can't either.

 

[steaver]

But your point has been, at least that is what I've understood, that it is only through sin that God's mercy could be understood. There is no way to know that.

If "to know that" was a snake it would bite you on the nose!

What do we know Marcia? We know that because of Adam's sin we know what good and evil is. Mercy is "good". We would not know mercy if we did not know sin (evil).

How do we know that sin was the only way to know God's mercy?

Because it is God's plan and God is a perfect planner wouldn't you say?

1) Adam was created WITHOUT any knowledge of good and evil. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

2) God placed within Adam the free-will to disobey his Maker. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

3) God placed in Adam's presence the tree bearing the fruit that could give Adam the knowledge of good and evil. Why? Adam's free-will had to be tested and exercised. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

4) God KNEW Adam would fail this test, yet God placed the tree there and allowed it all to happen. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

Now why would God set Adam up for failure, knowing Adam would fail?

Adam fails, knowledge of good and evil enters into man, God's mercy and love is revealed, God is glorified as He alone is Holy!

You have to ask yourself, Did God NOT plan on Adam's failure? Remember, the plan was written before anything was created. God's plan, how could there be another way? God's way is perfect!

What you are saying is that God could have revealed His love and mercy another way. He didn't. He did it this way, the way we are in. God being perfect wouldn't even have many ways. He has one way and it is always the best way and the perfect way, otherwise He wouldn't have done it the way He did. Don't you see this basic truth? God is perfect and the way He revealed Himself is perfect. There can't be a better way or another way.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

"Too hard for most of us to swallow". This is what all determinists need to think on. They love to toss it out at their opponents, but considering this being a "perfect plan" of "GOOD NEWS", the fact that it is something that has to be "swallowed" really casts a question mark on it being good news.
.

I don't think so. The good news isn't what is hard to face. What is hard to face is the fact that God determined Adam's sin.

The "Good news" is that Adam's sin was paid for by God. So even though God set Adam up to fail, He also pardoned his failure. Adam had to fail because God alone is Holy. We needed to learn this and the only way was to disobey and gain the knowledge of good and evil.

The only answer I can see for this is that the paradox is a result of people trying to explain too much. And you yourself did acknowledge that we can't always know everything about why God does certain things. That's what I meant by "pleading ignorance". When asked why this "perfect plan" is something so admittedly a "hard doctrine" that it has to be "swallowed", the only answer is that His ways are higher than ours.
It's not we who "won't", but beyond a certain level, you can't either.

It's not hard for those willing to see it for what it is. I have no problem worshipping God for all His wonderful attributes, including His sovereinty in ALL things!

God set Adam up to fail KNOWING Adam would indeed fail. This is God's sovereinty in the introduction of sin into the world. This is not a God's plan verses Satan's plan going on here. One plan, God in control for His purposes, God's plan.

Now ask yourself, what is the purpose of placing the knowledge of good and evil in front of a man, tell him don't eat it, knowing he will disobey?

Can you honestly say you have no idea?

If Adam would not have disobeyed and gained the knowledge of good and evil we would have no knowledge of good and evil.

....the only answer is that His ways are higher than ours.
It's not we who "won't", but beyond a certain level, you can't either

Yes, but we do know certain facts. We know that God planned Adam's failure. We know that because Adam failed Jesus is worshipped and glorified. We can't question God as to why He did it this way. The fact is He did and because God is perfect the plan must be perfect. Sin is horrible, but God allowed it, even planned it, before the foundation of the world. God Himself is not evil, yet God created the evil.

The only answer I can see for this is that the paradox is a result of people trying to explain too much.

How do you explain Adam disobeying God when you believe he had a intimate relationship with God that we could not possibly comprehend? I bet you have heard it said a hundred times, how that Adam must of had such a sweeeeet intimate relationship with God before he sinned, and I bet you believed it must be so even though the scripture says nothing of the sort anywhere! We are taught from little up how Adam walked with God with sweet fellowship and then he sinned and broke the intimacy.

Would this be trying to explain too much also?

There's no scripture about Adam walking with God. No intimacy spoken of. Yet you wouldn't argue with those who said it must be so. You wouldn't ask for scripture saying it was so.

But I present the scriptures and it is obvious what they reveal, but it's too hard to accept. God in control of even Adam's sin? No never! God is pure love and would have nothing to do with evil. It must have been the devil, the devil made him do it. It was the devil's plan and when God found out about it He had to make a way to fix the problem.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

If "to know that" was a snake it would bite you on the nose!

What do we know Marcia? We know that because of Adam's sin we know what good and evil is. Mercy is "good". We would not know mercy if we did not know sin (evil).

How do we know that sin was the only way to know God's mercy?

Because it is God's plan and God is a perfect planner wouldn't you say?

1) Adam was created WITHOUT any knowledge of good and evil. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

2) God placed within Adam the free-will to disobey his Maker. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

3) God placed in Adam's presence the tree bearing the fruit that could give Adam the knowledge of good and evil. Why? Adam's free-will had to be tested and exercised. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

4) God KNEW Adam would fail this test, yet God placed the tree there and allowed it all to happen. This was God's plan and God does things perfectly.

Now why would God set Adam up for failure, knowing Adam would fail?

Adam fails, knowledge of good and evil enters into man, God's mercy and love is revealed, God is glorified as He alone is Holy!

You have to ask yourself, Did God NOT plan on Adam's failure? Remember, the plan was written before anything was created. God's plan, how could there be another way? God's way is perfect!

What you are saying is that God could have revealed His love and mercy another way. He didn't. He did it this way, the way we are in. God being perfect wouldn't even have many ways. He has one way and it is always the best way and the perfect way, otherwise He wouldn't have done it the way He did. Don't you see this basic truth? God is perfect and the way He revealed Himself is perfect. There can't be a better way or another way.

:jesus:

You are making circular arguments and assertions with no backing. It is true that we know God's mercy because of sin, but that does not mean that that is the only way we can know God's mercy. And even it is the only way to know God's mercy, I cannot be glad that Adam sinned nor think it a good thing.

 

[swaimj]

What would God's mercy and justice mean in the absence of sin? My very point. What would God's love mean in the absence of creation?

I asked this question, and you said that this is your point? You lost me here. I cannot believe that your point in this thread to merely to ask this question. Rather, I think you are trying to answer this question.

My problem is that you are saying that Adam could not have known God's mercy and justice apart from sin. If Adam could not have known these apart from sin, how could they exist apart from sin? So let me re-phrase the question Steaver. Is it possible for the following attriibutes of God to exist apart from sin:
Love?
Mercy?
Grace?
Justice?

 

[Eric B]

I don't think so. The good news isn't what is hard to face. What is hard to face is the fact that God determined Adam's sin.

The "Good news" is that Adam's sin was paid for by God. So even though God set Adam up to fail, He also pardoned his failure. Adam had to fail because God alone is Holy. We needed to learn this and the only way was to disobey and gain the knowledge of good and evil.

Yes, but we do know certain facts. We know that God planned Adam's failure. We know that because Adam failed Jesus is worshipped and glorified. We can't question God as to why He did it this way. The fact is He did and because God is perfect the plan must be perfect. Sin is horrible, but God allowed it, even planned it, before the foundation of the world. God Himself is not evil, yet God created the evil.

But I present the scriptures and it is obvious what they reveal, but it's too hard to accept. God in control of even Adam's sin? No never! God is pure love and would have nothing to do with evil. It must have been the devil, the devil made him do it. It was the devil's plan and when God found out about it He had to make a way to fix the problem.

Adam's sin may have been paid for, but the majority of people born from him are either not paid for, or were paid for, but simply didn't have the payment applied to them, depending on which of the views one takes. The even "harder" part (as often gloated about by Calvinists) is that it was God who deliberately did this, just to save a relative few; AND, then pulled some sort of legal switcheroo, where sin was made their "fault" and not His. (I still wonder why you even bother denying Calvinism. Just because of the "will"? Many Calvinists here still believe in human will; yet nevertheless affirm that those who do not exercise it toward God are the "vessels of wrath", just as you affirm). Calvinists will point out that the only other alternative to their view is that God is sitting by helplessy waiting for all these free wills to choose Him, and is basically losing out. Hence, the only way to glorify God's sovereignty is to make it His deliberate choice regarding who is saved and damned, and also that sin would be created in the first place by Him, yet, Him being blameless. And you seem to be taking this latter route, yet trying to get around the unavoidable resultant double-predestination.

It's been hard for me to bring up this point, because I don't want to make it look like I'm questioning the effectiveness and perfection of the plan because of how many are lost. But you're basing your claim of its perfection on your being saved and experiencing mercy. (But then, we get into the whole OSAS debate, and the notion thatif a person doesn't persever to the end, he wasn't really saved, and the notion that God in His sovereignty could deceive a reprobate into thinking he's saved which is a logical extension of the rest of this; hence, whether you've really received "mercy" to begin with is not even 100% certain!)

So it's one thing to be thankful to have received mercy, but quite another to claim God deliberately condemned millions of others just so you could be saved, and that that was better than any other way (like maybe just forgiving everybody). This is why I say that something is missing in our knowledge. You may think you've found the perfect formula or combination to putting together all the pieces of the puzzle with various scriptures on the subject, but you will always run up on some greater problem that casts your whole claim in doubt, and then have to conclude, well that much we cant know, but this much [my conceived answer] we can know.

It's not hard for those willing to see it for what it is. I have no problem worshipping God for all His wonderful attributes, including His sovereinty in ALL things!
God set Adam up to fail KNOWING Adam would indeed fail. This is God's sovereinty in the introduction of sin into the world. This is not a God's plan verses Satan's plan going on here. One plan, God in control for His purposes, God's plan.
Now ask yourself, what is the purpose of placing the knowledge of good and evil in front of a man, tell him don't eat it, knowing he will disobey?

Can you honestly say you have no idea?

If Adam would not have disobeyed and gained the knowledge of good and evil we would have no knowledge of good and evil.

These types of questions are the sorts of things Paul told us to avoid as senseless distractions. You're proposing this "hard" point (in what is supposed to be good news), and trying to force everyone to see that it's "just true" through inductive reasoning. But if that is what the good news stands or fall upon (as Calvinists argue), then it ceases being good news. Unless all that matters is one individual escaping eternal discomfort as opposed to someone else.
All I see here is "look at me; I'm strong enough to 'swallow' this hard pill that no one else can!"

The perfection of the plan does not rest in God damning a majority of man just so relative few could be saved. There is something more to it that we do not know. So it's a waste of time to make these assertions.

How do you explain Adam disobeying God when you believe he had a intimate relationship with God that we could not possibly comprehend? I bet you have heard it said a hundred times, how that Adam must of had such a sweeeeet intimate relationship with God before he sinned, and I bet you believed it must be so even though the scripture says nothing of the sort anywhere! We are taught from little up how Adam walked with God with sweet fellowship and then he sinned and broke the intimacy.

Would this be trying to explain too much also?

There's no scripture about Adam walking with God. No intimacy spoken of. Yet you wouldn't argue with those who said it must be so. You wouldn't ask for scripture saying it was so.

I never argued this, and never really thought much on it. I figured that there was obviously something that was lost in the Fall. If nothing more than an innocense. Just compare: before, they walked together, and after, they hid, and God banished them. Of course, there might be a greater intimacy of restored men in Heaven than the immature Adam had in the Garden. But you cannot build too much of a doctrine on this. Let's just be thankful that we received mercy!

What would God's mercy and justice mean in the absence of sin? My very point. What would God's love mean in the absence of creation?

I asked this question, and you said that this is your point? You lost me here. I cannot believe that your point in this thread to merely to ask this question. Rather, I think you are trying to answer this question.

My problem is that you are saying that Adam could not have known God's mercy and justice apart from sin. If Adam could not have known these apart from sin, how could they exist apart from sin? So let me re-phrase the question Steaver. Is it possible for the following attriibutes of God to exist apart from sin:
Love?
Mercy?
Grace?
Justice?

This is a point that needs considering.

If his view was true, then we could well expect God to place us in another bad situation after this life, after all, sin and pain are so good and make things better in the end. Maybe purgatory would be good for all of us, then?

 

[RAdam]

God did not set Adam up for failure. Adam had every advantage not to sin. Whereas you and I were conceived in iniquity, as David wrote, Adam was created without a sin nature. He had no predisposition to sin. He was good and very good. God gave him one commandment, and a simple one at that. God expected him to keep it, and had every expectation to do so. After all, Adam should have kept it. Adam failed, but God didn't set him up to fail.

Now, concerning heaven, we have nothing to worry about. We won't merely be brought back up to Adam's level, but far above it. We will be conformed to the likeness of Christ. Adam had innocency, but that without knowlege. We will have knowledge, yet be sinless as well.

 

[steaver]

You are making circular arguments and assertions with no backing. It is true that we know God's mercy because of sin, but that does not mean that that is the only way we can know God's mercy. And even it is the only way to know God's mercy, I cannot be glad that Adam sinned nor think it a good thing.

My argument is based on what we are told in Genesis chapters 1-3.

The only way Adam could know good and evil was to eat of it, this is what we know from Genesis 1-3. If there was another way, a better way, then I am sure a perfect God would have done it another way.

It's not a matter of "glad or good thing". It is a matter of what does the facts of Genesis teach us. It was bad for Adam to sin, but it was good for God to reveal mercy. All are less than perfect, God alone is Holy, this is the lesson of Genesis 1-3. Adam was designed to fail or to prove God alone is perfect. In this design God also reveals His grace, justice, love and mercy.

A perfect plan from a perfect God!

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

So let me re-phrase the question Steaver. Is it possible for the following attriibutes of God to exist apart from sin:
Love?
Mercy?
Grace?
Justice?

Not only is it possible, but according to the scriptures it is so. God IS love, mercy,grace and just. Thess attributes are eternal because God is eternal. These existed before creation and before Adam sinned.

If Adam could not have known these apart from sin, how could they exist apart from sin?

They existed before sin and before Adam because God is eternal.

Let me ask you swaimj, How did Adam learn of God's good? Remember, Adam was created WITHOUT any knowledge of good and evil. Now how did Adam learn good?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Eric B and RAdam, I am pressed for time right now but I will read over your comments and get back to you. Thank you both for adding your thoughts! I appreciate it very much.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

My argument is based on what we are told in Genesis chapters 1-3.

The only way Adam could know good and evil was to eat of it, this is what we know from Genesis 1-3. If there was another way, a better way, then I am sure a perfect God would have done it another way.

It's not a matter of "glad or good thing". It is a matter of what does the facts of Genesis teach us. It was bad for Adam to sin, but it was good for God to reveal mercy. All are less than perfect, God alone is Holy, this is the lesson of Genesis 1-3. Adam was designed to fail or to prove God alone is perfect. In this design God also reveals His grace, justice, love and mercy.

A perfect plan from a perfect God!

:jesus:

Most people, including myself, think that knowing good and evil means knowing the distinction and being acquainted wiht evil, because if one does not know evil, one does not know the distinction and is not familiar with evil. God told Adam what was good and that it was wrong to eat from that tree. So Adam did know there was a right and wrong, a good and a bad, but he was not acquainted (to know) with evil. He chose to disobey so he could decide for himself what good and bad was. And thus he "knew" evil; he became intimately acquainted with it by disobeying God and bringing sin into the world. This does not mean Adam did not know what good was. How could Adam know God and not know good?

You should do a study of the statement "knowing good and evil" in context of the Hebrew and context of the passage and of the whole Bible.

 

[Marcia]

The Devil asserted that by taking of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, human eyes would be opened—implying wisdom and enlightenment—to allow a person to know good and evil as God does. Immediately, Satan places the emphasis on knowing, but it is contrasted with living eternally. Satan proposes that mankind should be like God in taking to himself the knowledge—the definition—of what is right and wrong, asserting that this is a good thing! In contrast, the Tree of Life represents a way of living in which the meaning of good and evil already exists, and eternal life involves submitting through the Holy Spirit to that definition and the Sovereign who is its source.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/1684/Knowledge-of-Good-Evil.htm