Ccm

[DaleMcNamee]

Dear Aaron,

You wrote : " Church musicians and high school band leaders are not authorities on music."

That's the arrogant & ignorant statement always expected from you. I've read your other similar responses in the other BB threads.

Where's your expertise ? Have you studied music like college music majors have done ? Can you play an instrument ? Have you spent any time with people who can arrange and compose music ? If not, lay your hand over your mouth as Job did when he couldn't answer God, and move on.

Or are you only able to parrot Plato, Frank Garlock, Dan Lucarini,Kimberly Smith, Bill Gothard, et al. ?

I'll put my 30+ years of being a church musician against your fantasies any day.

Finally, as a Christian, I find your attitude and antics "cringe worthy". In fact, if you were the only Christian I ever met, I wouldn't have become one because of your outward behavior, which echoes your heart.

And you're so worried about outward decorum !

I thank the Lord Jesus that He saved me and showed me that people like you aren't the norm for Christians.

 

[rbell]

And so I we are to assume that you are the authority?

That yipping sound is the dog you just hit with the rock you just threw...

 

[rbell]

Music is judged on its appeal, not on its theoretical constructs.

How convenient for you. That pretty much gives you carte blanche to equate your taste's with the Almighty's.

 

[Aaron]

And so I we are to assume that you are the authority?

I'm not the one boasting thereof.

 

[Aaron]

How convenient for you. That pretty much gives you carte blanche to equate your taste's with the Almighty's.

It actually frees one to think like the Almighty. We're commanded to think on whatsoever things are lovely.

 

[sag38]

I'm not the one boasting thereof.

I would beg to differ.

 

[BlessedWife]

There are lots of arguments against CCM. My biggest complaint is that many of the CCM artists that kids look up to as role models are no better than your secular musicians. Jaci Valasquez, squeaky clean Christian singer of the hit song "God So Loved", starred in a film called "Chasing Papi" in which she showed her body in lingerie for a scene. Focus on the Family (who, in my opinion, is fairly liberal) said this about the movie:

Now for the not-so-small matter of CCM artist Jaci Velasquez making her big-screen debut in this movie. "How can Jaci Velasquez represent the Contemporary Christian Music industry in the skimpy outfits she wears in her new movie Chasing Papi?" asks Whittier, Calif., teen and loyal Jaci fan Alena Takii. "I like her music and can understand that she wants to break into the mainstream industry to reach out to the rest of the world, but is she really giving herself a good name by choosing to be in a movie that compromises what she stands for as a Christian?" It seems to me that Alena has answered her own question. Don't let Jaci's starring role mislead your family. Chase teens and tweens away from Papi.

Plugged In Review

Michael W. Smith is probably one of the single-most popular artists in the history of CCM. How many of his hit songs are based on sound Scriptural principles or mention the name of Jesus? There are some that mention His name, but most are happy little songs about how tough life can be, but giggles and rainbows and other such fluffy things make it all worth while.

Amy Grant, one of the very first female CCM artists who was also one of the first to cross over into mainstream secular music (with her hits "Baby, Baby", "That's What Love is For" and "Every Heartbeat") said in a 1991 People Magazine interview that "Christians are sexy". In a 1992 Woman's Day interview she said that "it's fun to flirt if you're a happily married woman". Of course, we know Amy Grant couldn't have been too happily married as she entered into an adulterous relationship with country crooner Vince Gill. They would later divorce their respective spouses and marry each other.

In her video for "Baby, Baby", within the first thirty seconds she is depicted as smiling after a man she passes on the sidewalk leaves his girlfriend behind and chases after Grant on his knees. There are several scenes of her being embraced from behind by a handsome Latino who was not her husband. In other scenes the couple is depicted as chasing each other around an apartment in the early-morning light. Grant appears to be wearing the man's shirt implying that they have spent the night together. Is this video conveying a message that Amy Grant is an example of modesty, chastity and Christian holiness?

These are merely a few examples. There are tons of other CCM artists that our kids are looking up to and people are using these songs during church services, but they are nothing more than sanitized versions of their secular counterparts. Just because the songs aren't about sex or laden with profanity doesn't mean the Gospel message is presented through the lyrics or that the artists are right with the Lord. That's why we have to be discerning and careful, especially when our youth lift this music up on a pedestal it shouldn't be on.

 

[sag38]

Please, not another ranting diatribe with a few glaring but rare examples and over bloated with more legalistic opinion. Will this thread never end?

 

[rbell]

So, Blessedwife...we are able to condemn an entire "genre" of music (for lack of a better term) you don't like based on three anecdotal, out-of-date examples?

So, can I also condemn preaching by naming three preachers who have had moral failures?

And certainly you don't think, do you, that anyone here suggests that all music that is considered "Christian" is purposed for corporate worship? (I mean, "Happy Birthday" is a perfectly OK song, but it's not for worship...)

By the way...you should be sure and cite av1611.org when you quote them...

 

[sag38]

Wow! 1611.org is the bomb. At first I thought this site must be a parody but it's the real thing. The next time I want to write a legalistic ranting diatribe trashing just about anything I'll be sure to go there.

 

[BlessedWife]

Please, not another ranting diatribe with a few glaring but rare examples and over bloated with more legalistic opinion. Will this thread never end?

I'm offended you call my views "legalistic". Fundamentalism isn't legalism. The Psalms are chock full of verses that explicitly lay out the criteria music must meet in order to be considered fit for the use of worshiping our Lord. Nine CCM songs out of ten do not meet the criteria. We can twist the Scriptures to suit our "itching ears", so to speak, but we cannot deny that the Bible says what It means and It means what It says.

So, Blessedwife...we are able to condemn an entire "genre" of music (for lack of a better term) you don't like based on three anecdotal, out-of-date examples?

I'm not "condemning". I listen to some CCM artists. I wouldn't sit in a church that incorporated the music into the worship service, but I'm not saying all CCM is corrupt and the musicians depraved either. What I'm saying is that many people have created an idol out of this genre of music. We've compromised because the young people have said, "I can't enjoy Jesus unless it's cool". Churches have compromised and endorsed a form of music that labels itself as Christian and yet most of the music does not present the Gospel (or it paints a heretical "gospel") and the musicians are often as scornful of the things of God as their secular counterparts.

Please show me one passage of the Bible that says we are to compromise in order to be "seeker friendly", "appeal to the teens" or "make Christianity look cool/easy/fun". We are to be separate from the world. How are we separate from the world when we create a genre of music that sounds just like the music of the world? Why must we emulate secular society in order to make Christianity more comfortable or cool? CCM arose out of some contrived need for music that was "G-rated" that Christians could listen to when giving up the sex, drug and general sin-laden lyrics of contemporary secular music seemed to be too difficult to bear.

Furthermore, my examples are not "outdated". We're talking about some of the biggest names in CCM history.

So, can I also condemn preaching by naming three preachers who have had moral failures?

If they are living in a state of unrepentant sin and preaching a watered-down message or abandon teaching the Scriptures in favor of fuzzy feel-good testimony time that fails to mention the saving blood of Jesus Christ then absolutely YES you should condemn that preaching!

By the way...you should be sure and cite av1611.org when you quote them...

That was rude and uncalled for. I don't use av1611.org. I use God's Holy Word and my own convictions and understanding of these matters. I didn't even know of that site until you mentioned it. I had to go look it up.

My point was missed completely by those of you who wish to see any sort of issue brought against this genre as "legalism" or "an attack". I didn't say, "oh, don't listen to CCM because it has sinful drum beats" or "if you listen to CCM you're not a real Christian". I said be discerning. Don't expect CCM to deepen your knowledge of the Bible. Don't expect CCM to be your salvation. Don't encourage our young people to trade daily quiet time with the Lord for listening to music with a watered down or non-existent Gospel message. Don't encourage our young people to look up to some of these musicians. Remember Katy Perry? As a teenager she recorded a Gospel-rock album. She's now famous for her song "I Kissed a Girl".

 

[sag38]

More legalistic opinion and very little substance.

 

[BlessedWife]

The music we listen to today sometimes has good words, but the music is a cheap imitation of the world. Since the world has rock Christianity has rock. Don't tell me that the world had Handel's Messiah, or even music like "It is Well With My Soul." They didn't.

Amen! You said that better than I could, DHK. People think music is a rather silly and inconsequential thing, but it has more of a hold over our minds than we can imagine. Most people today can't quote one verse from the Bible from memory (the one notable exception is typically John 3:16), but could sing the lyrics to their favorite song in their entirety.

When we sing the Gospel hymns, oftentimes they are based on passages of Scripture. Many people could forget the theme of the sermon preached on Sunday morning, but could recall a favorite hymn that was sung.

Also, using CCM during worship service is often met with cries of, "I experienced Jesus today through the music!" or "God was in that place during that worship song" or "God spoke to me through that Michael W. Smith song!" I defy anyone to show me one place in the Bible where it supports music for the glory of satisfying our emotions, for the purpose of lifting us up rather lifting the Name of God up, or that God spoke to people through secular music.

 

[BlessedWife]

More legalistic opinion and very little substance.

Would you care to present Scriptures that effectively refute what I have said, or are you just going to continue to bear false witness against me in your pursuit of defending a genre of music?

 

[annsni]

There are lots of arguments against CCM. My biggest complaint is that many of the CCM artists that kids look up to as role models are no better than your secular musicians. Jaci Valasquez, squeaky clean Christian singer of the hit song "God So Loved", starred in a film called "Chasing Papi" in which she showed her body in lingerie for a scene. Focus on the Family (who, in my opinion, is fairly liberal) said this about the movie:


Plugged In Review

Michael W. Smith is probably one of the single-most popular artists in the history of CCM. How many of his hit songs are based on sound Scriptural principles or mention the name of Jesus? There are some that mention His name, but most are happy little songs about how tough life can be, but giggles and rainbows and other such fluffy things make it all worth while.

Amy Grant, one of the very first female CCM artists who was also one of the first to cross over into mainstream secular music (with her hits "Baby, Baby", "That's What Love is For" and "Every Heartbeat") said in a 1991 People Magazine interview that "Christians are sexy". In a 1992 Woman's Day interview she said that "it's fun to flirt if you're a happily married woman". Of course, we know Amy Grant couldn't have been too happily married as she entered into an adulterous relationship with country crooner Vince Gill. They would later divorce their respective spouses and marry each other.

In her video for "Baby, Baby", within the first thirty seconds she is depicted as smiling after a man she passes on the sidewalk leaves his girlfriend behind and chases after Grant on his knees. There are several scenes of her being embraced from behind by a handsome Latino who was not her husband. In other scenes the couple is depicted as chasing each other around an apartment in the early-morning light. Grant appears to be wearing the man's shirt implying that they have spent the night together. Is this video conveying a message that Amy Grant is an example of modesty, chastity and Christian holiness?

These are merely a few examples. There are tons of other CCM artists that our kids are looking up to and people are using these songs during church services, but they are nothing more than sanitized versions of their secular counterparts. Just because the songs aren't about sex or laden with profanity doesn't mean the Gospel message is presented through the lyrics or that the artists are right with the Lord. That's why we have to be discerning and careful, especially when our youth lift this music up on a pedestal it shouldn't be on.

All of these ARE history. Very old history. Amy Grant did "Baby, Baby" in 1991. That's 19 years ago. Could you find some "dirt" on an artist who's songs we sing in church today? I'll give you some names - Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Charlie Hall, David Crowder, Lincoln Brewster, Kristy Nockles just to name a few. These are all men and women who have such a heart for the Lord. I personally know Charlie and his guys and I've seen their lives being lived for the glory of God. So, of course you can find dirt on some of the artists in CCM but that doesn't mean that all are bad. I can certainly find some IFB anti-CCM people with some dirt in their background too.

 

[annsni]

I'm offended you call my views "legalistic". Fundamentalism isn't legalism. The Psalms are chock full of verses that explicitly lay out the criteria music must meet in order to be considered fit for the use of worshiping our Lord. Nine CCM songs out of ten do not meet the criteria. We can twist the Scriptures to suit our "itching ears", so to speak, but we cannot deny that the Bible says what It means and It means what It says.



I'm not "condemning". I listen to some CCM artists. I wouldn't sit in a church that incorporated the music into the worship service, but I'm not saying all CCM is corrupt and the musicians depraved either. What I'm saying is that many people have created an idol out of this genre of music. We've compromised because the young people have said, "I can't enjoy Jesus unless it's cool". Churches have compromised and endorsed a form of music that labels itself as Christian and yet most of the music does not present the Gospel (or it paints a heretical "gospel") and the musicians are often as scornful of the things of God as their secular counterparts.

Please show me one passage of the Bible that says we are to compromise in order to be "seeker friendly", "appeal to the teens" or "make Christianity look cool/easy/fun". We are to be separate from the world. How are we separate from the world when we create a genre of music that sounds just like the music of the world? Why must we emulate secular society in order to make Christianity more comfortable or cool? CCM arose out of some contrived need for music that was "G-rated" that Christians could listen to when giving up the sex, drug and general sin-laden lyrics of contemporary secular music seemed to be too difficult to bear.

Furthermore, my examples are not "outdated". We're talking about some of the biggest names in CCM history.



If they are living in a state of unrepentant sin and preaching a watered-down message or abandon teaching the Scriptures in favor of fuzzy feel-good testimony time that fails to mention the saving blood of Jesus Christ then absolutely YES you should condemn that preaching!



That was rude and uncalled for. I don't use av1611.org. I use God's Holy Word and my own convictions and understanding of these matters. I didn't even know of that site until you mentioned it. I had to go look it up.

My point was missed completely by those of you who wish to see any sort of issue brought against this genre as "legalism" or "an attack". I didn't say, "oh, don't listen to CCM because it has sinful drum beats" or "if you listen to CCM you're not a real Christian". I said be discerning. Don't expect CCM to deepen your knowledge of the Bible. Don't expect CCM to be your salvation. Don't encourage our young people to trade daily quiet time with the Lord for listening to music with a watered down or non-existent Gospel message. Don't encourage our young people to look up to some of these musicians. Remember Katy Perry? As a teenager she recorded a Gospel-rock album. She's now famous for her song "I Kissed a Girl".

You DO realize that hymns are worldly music too, don't you? Just because the words speak of God doesn't mean that they are "holy". Music is music and you absolutely can find secular - even satanic music that sounds like hymns.

 

[sag38]

Would you care to present Scriptures that effectively refute what I have said, or are you just going to continue to bear false witness against me in your pursuit of defending a genre of music?

I don't need to. You are the one posting opinions without substantiation.

 

[annsni]

Amen! You said that better than I could, DHK. People think music is a rather silly and inconsequential thing, but it has more of a hold over our minds than we can imagine. Most people today can't quote one verse from the Bible from memory (the one notable exception is typically John 3:16), but could sing the lyrics to their favorite song in their entirety.

When we sing the Gospel hymns, oftentimes they are based on passages of Scripture. Many people could forget the theme of the sermon preached on Sunday morning, but could recall a favorite hymn that was sung.

Also, using CCM during worship service is often met with cries of, "I experienced Jesus today through the music!" or "God was in that place during that worship song" or "God spoke to me through that Michael W. Smith song!" I defy anyone to show me one place in the Bible where it supports music for the glory of satisfying our emotions, for the purpose of lifting us up rather lifting the Name of God up, or that God spoke to people through secular music.

Hmm - my husband has written many songs. Let's see:

"Bring me to the place where you want me Lord. (chorus)
Show me your ways, O Lord, teach me your paths
Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior (verse)
My hope is in you, O Lord, all the day long
You guide the humble in what is right. Let me be teachable in your ways. (verse)"

Then there is this:

"Seek the Lord while He may be found. Call on Him while He is near. (chorus)
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the evil man his thoughts. (verse)
Let him turn to the Lord and God will have mercy on him.(verse)
Let him turn to our God, the Lord will freely pardon him.(verse)

Of course we experience God in our services. How many say "God was in that preaching" or "God spoke to me through your sermon, pastor" or "I experienced Jesus in that prayer time"? Why is music any different?

 

[annsni]

Would you care to present Scriptures that effectively refute what I have said, or are you just going to continue to bear false witness against me in your pursuit of defending a genre of music?

Show me one verse in the Scriptures that say music is evil or of the devil. Show me a verse that says that God is displeased with music.

 

[sag38]

I thought the Psalms were chocked full of examples of what music is appropriate and that which isn't. I guess there is no proof in the pudding.