Ccm

[Eric B]

Wrong again.

Over simplistic and revisionist. These styles were not considered inappropriate for the public ear, or even carnal. They were not employed in the church because it would violate the Scriptural mandate for simplicity and prohibition of exhibitionism.

Where do you get this tripe?

It is well documented how the music we are now calling "acceptable" classical or traditional music, when new was also likewise condemned as worldly, sensual, and even demonic. The violin was even called "the devil's fiddle", and the great pipe-organ, "the devil's bagpipe"; both of which would lead to dancing in the church. The piano was also rejected as a "secular instrument" and was later associated with "ragtime". The augmented fourth chord was said to be possessed of the devil (yet since then it is used extensively in the Church), and classical composers were denounced as producing "wild insanities" without "form or meaning" (See Miller, Contemporary Christian Debate, p.28)

People used to plainchant and other simpler styles would naturally look down on polyphonic styles which include classical and most everything afterward, as well as various instruments they were not used to, or had associated with bad things. This is basically how people reacted to everything new or different (and right here shows a problem in the "historic" Church's attitude, which continues today).

So again, it is you who have revised history, out of nowhere.

 

[drfuss]

The discussion here has been mostly centered on whether CCM is good of bad.

Let's turn the discussion around. Why is it that those who support CCM do not like traditional Christian music?

Why would you want to change from traditional Christian music to CCM?

 

[David Michael Harris]

Bit of Handel for you on Christmas day.

http://www.holyfear.net/?p=672

No, I am not promoting my site, it's non commercial anyway, just trying to spread some Christmas cheer Whatever that means

 

[annsni]

The discussion here has been mostly centered on whether CCM is good of bad.

Let's turn the discussion around. Why is it that those who support CCM do not like traditional Christian music?

Why would you want to change from traditional Christian music to CCM?

Who says that those who support CCM don't like traditional music? I think there are some traditional songs that are beyond outstanding and theologically so deep. Others? Not so much. But that's the same across any genre - so me is good and some is bad.

 

[rbell]

The discussion here has been mostly centered on whether CCM is good of bad.

Let's turn the discussion around. Why is it that those who support CCM do not like traditional Christian music?

Why would you want to change from traditional Christian music to CCM?

For us, it wasn't a "change," but an addition. We do old, ancient, and modern music.

 

[Eric B]

Some people may also get tired of the old, because churches deliberately try to make it as dull, plain and monotonous as possible because of this false music philosophy. But I don't know of any who dislike it the way those favoring the old dislike the new. Every contemporary church I've been in would always throw in an old hymn just to keep with tradition a bit.

 

[Spinach]

We don't sing CCM in our English church. Why change something that's already good? What I mean is that we sing out of the blue hymnal. Loudly. We have violins, mandolins, and a piano. And we sing our hearts out. For an hour at a time. It's far from boring, I assure you.

But when I am at home or in my car, I like to listen to an/or sing some CCM. Or traditional hymns. Whatever is on my heart at the time.

 

[Aaron]

Let's all be real quiet, and maybe Johnv will cite some evidence.

[crickets]

 

[Johnv]

Let's all be real quiet, and maybe Johnv will cite some evidence.

We don't even need to be quiet for Aaron to voice some condescending arrogance (not to mention that Aaron's claim was refuted in posts 116, 120, and 121).

Why is it that those who support CCM do not like traditional Christian music?

I went through every post in this thread can can't find anyone who voiced a dislike for "traditional" music. BTW, by "traditional" I assume you mean something to the effect of "old music by dead guys", since there's no "traditional christian music" genre (in fact, there are several selections that would fit into the CCM category, that are considered traditional. There are a lot of people who don't care much for classical or baroque music, citing that it's stuffy and boring. One can presume they would dislike classical and baroque church hymns for the same reason.

 

[drfuss]

We don't even need to be quiet for Aaron to voice some condescending arrogance (not to mention that Aaron's claim was refuted in posts 116, 120, and 121).

I went through every post in this thread can can't find anyone who voiced a dislike for "traditional" music. BTW, by "traditional" I assume you mean something to the effect of "old music by dead guys", since there's no "traditional christian music" genre (in fact, there are several selections that would fit into the CCM category, that are considered traditional. There are a lot of people who don't care much for classical or baroque music, citing that it's stuffy and boring. One can presume they would dislike classical and baroque church hymns for the same reason.

Okay, using the term traditional christian music can be misleading since it implies old music. I stand corrected. What I really meant by traditional christian music was Not CCM with a rock beat. There are many recent songs (such as "People Need the Lord") that are worshipful and do not have the rock beat. In addition, most of the time the rock beat in CCM is loud.

To me, CCM with the rock beat is not conducive to worship based on the message, but instead is conducive to responding to the rock beat.

 

[Aaron]

We don't even need to be quiet for Aaron to voice some condescending arrogance (not to mention that Aaron's claim was refuted in posts 116, 120, and 121).

Not with evidence. Without evidence, it's just "he said, she said." (I'm the "he.")

 

[rbell]

To me, CCM with the rock beat is not conducive to worship based on the message, but instead is conducive to responding to the rock beat.

And it may be a distraction to you...but that is a personal issue.

 

[drfuss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by drfuss
To me, CCM with the rock beat is not conducive to worship based on the message, but instead is conducive to responding to the rock beat.

rbell writes: "And it may be a distraction to you...but that is a personal issue."

It may be a personal issue, but I am far from being alone.

When rock and roll became popular, I was in my early 20's. Many of my friends liked the rock and roll music, but some of us did not. At that time, I could see that to like the rock and roll music, you had to submit your emotions to the beat, i.e. go with the beat. Since that time, I refused to have my emotions controlled by the rock beat.

Those who enjoyed the rock and roll music and the follow on hard rock, consider this type of music to be good music (again a personal issue). Therefore, they see no problem with the rock beat in church.

On the other hand, those who rejected the rock and roll music and, consequently, developed a distaste for it, have a problem accepting and being exposed to this in church.

As indicated in some of the posts here, some like both CCM with the rock beat and also the other music. Those who like CCM with the rock beat, seem to have little trouble with the other music. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true.

 

[Eric B]

It may be a personal issue, but I am far from being alone.

When rock and roll became popular, I was in my early 20's. Many of my friends liked the rock and roll music, but some of us did not. At that time, I could see that to like the rock and roll music, you had to submit your emotions to the beat, i.e. go with the beat. Since that time, I refused to have my emotions controlled by the rock beat.

Those who enjoyed the rock and roll music and the follow on hard rock, consider this type of music to be good music (again a personal issue). Therefore, they see no problem with the rock beat in church.

On the other hand, those who rejected the rock and roll music and, consequently, developed a distaste for it, have a problem accepting and being exposed to this in church.

As indicated in some of the posts here, some like both CCM with the rock beat and also the other music. Those who like CCM with the rock beat, seem to have little trouble with the other music. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true.

And that's the non-sequitur in the whole argument. You HAD to go with the beat, like it took over your mind and body and controlled you. Some may BE too into the beat, but this magical power attributed to the music is where the misconception begins.

 

[annsni]

And that's the non-sequitur in the whole argument. You HAD to go with the beat, like it took over your mind and body and controlled you. Some may BE too into the beat, but this magical power attributed to the music is where the misconception begins.

Seriously!! "Submit your emotions to the beat"?? Just to listen to the music? I guess I did that at the high school band concert too! Tapping my foot to the classical music. How dare I!

 

[nodak]

Give me a room full of innocent preschoolers and my keyboard.

Depending on the beat I use I can have them marching in just a few seconds, or little backsides bopping, or with just a little tweaking I can get those innocent kiddies to do a sort of bump and grind. (And yes, it happened, accidentally hit a wrong accompaniment button demoing the instrument to a preschool. Old Baptist lady with red face was me!)

No point in denying our bodies respond to the beat. That isn't evil, it just is.

But some beats do lead us to imitate evil behavior. And I deeply resent encountering that in a "worship" service. (If the praise teams hips cannot stay still singing praise of God maybe they don't belong up there! Especially when they do a move Beyonce does on certain tv commercials that is extremely suggestive.)

Part of my reaction is, I am very sure, due to having lived where actual pagan worship (don't just read nonChristian, but pagan) incorporated a very specific beat. (And don't think jungle--not many of those in the desert southwest.) And when I encounter it in church and people tell me how it "leads them so close to God" I literally physically want to flee. That particular beat can be found in both old and new music.

We need to open our eyes, our ears, and our minds and stop judging music by whether or not "we like it" and use our discerner. We have a carnal nature, or sin nature, and the music we "like" might be music our carnal nature likes. That is NOT always the case, but we should be willing to consider it as a possibility.

 

[rbell]

But some beats do lead us to imitate evil behavior.

Neither Scripture nor science offers support for this view.

 

[rbell]

Give me a room full of innocent preschoolers and my keyboard.

[off topic]

Innocent preschoolers?

Well there's no doubt...God has gifted you to work with them. Us "non-gifted" folks know they're guilty...

[/off topic]

 

[Johnv]

Not with evidence. Without evidence, it's just "he said, she said." (I'm the "he.")

You've just admitted to being the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[annsni]

Neither Scripture nor science offers support for this view.

Correct. I've listened to a LOT of music and never once was led to do any sort of evil behavior.