Ceremonial vs Moral Laws

[vooks]

Why would you want to?:

..... ye are not under law, but under grace. Ro 6:14

Is this too complicated for you?:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

Or is it too simple for you?

Thank you,
This is quite an eye opener to some of us.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

1. What is a MORAL Law?

Those laws that regulate conduct and are axiomatic. They tend to be based on God's characteristics.

2. What is a CEREMONIAL Law?

Those laws given specifically to the Nation of Israel for the purpose of marking Israel as a Messianic nation and reminding the Israelites that they were the people from whom the Messiah would eventually come.

3. What is the biblical criteria for classifying any law as either moral or ceremonial?

If it's given to the Nation of Israel, it's a ceremonial law. If it's axiomatic, it's a moral law.

There is some over lap between moral and ceremonial laws, such as the prohibition of homosexuality. However, because the ceremonial laws against homosexuality no longer exist, the penalty of death no longer exists, although the prohibition still does.

 

[vooks]

Those laws that regulate conduct and are axiomatic. They tend to be based on God's characteristics.



Those laws given specifically to the Nation of Israel for the purpose of marking Israel as a Messianic nation and reminding the Israelites that they were the people from whom the Messiah would eventually come.



If it's given to the Nation of Israel, it's a ceremonial law. If it's axiomatic, it's a moral law.

There is some over lap between moral and ceremonial laws, such as the prohibition of homosexuality. However, because the ceremonial laws against homosexuality no longer exist, the penalty of death no longer exists, although the prohibition still does.

Thank you but you lost me there with the example of homosexuality.
What do you mean by 'ceremonial laws against homosexuality no longer exist'?
All I know of homosexuality is 'don't do it and if you do, you Should be killed'

 

[McCree79]

3 types of law in the OT. Ceremonial, Moral and Judicial.
Ceremonial deals with forms of worshipping God and with*ritual cleanliness. Judicial, as seen in Exodus 21. 10 commandments would be moral. However, we are not under any law. Personally I believe the Mosaic law is unity and you cannot separate the 3. We are not under any of the 3. However, Christ gave us commands and teachings of the NT to conduct ourselves by. Almost all of moral law was reinstated by Christ and NT writings(God breathed), inside this New Covenant we are under.

*I think covenant theology makes a mistake trying to eliminate 2 of the 3 types of OT/Mosaic law. The law was never presented as segmented and dividable. You keep all the law or you replace it with a new covenant. Dispensational theology and New Covenant theology address the law with a better approach.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Thank you but you lost me there with the example of homosexuality.
What do you mean by 'ceremonial laws against homosexuality no longer exist'?

Really? You don't know what it means to say something doesn't exist?

All I know of homosexuality is 'don't do it and if you do, you Should be killed'

Maybe you should read 1 Corinthians 6.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,
We are trying to determine what are moral and what are ceremonial laws and here you are declaring the Commandments of God as 'moral'. Next I will ask what are 'commandments' and you will take me in circles as you have always done.

Could you be unambiguous for once?

Fortunately it was "explained in detail" in the post that preceded yours.

============================================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
D.L. Moody is not the only one to claim that the TEN Commandments are given to mankind in Eden and still binding on the saints today.

Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

[FONT=&quot]Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19 link[/FONT]


Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________

Originally Posted by Baptist Confession of Faith [FONT=&quot]Section 22.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Point 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

….the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

…by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified… Ro 3:20

Discern the contrast between these two and you will know the difference between ceremonial and moral law.

Romans 2 points out how "Gospel judgment" works as it relates to the LAW of God.

Thanks for that post.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And this Romans 2 Gospel solution includes the New Covenant promise where the Law of God is written on the heart in Romans 2 and the believer is circumcised in HEART - by the Holy Spirit.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

And of course Romans 2 gives us this intro - this context for the "Gospel Judgment" of Rom 2:16

[FONT=&quot]Romans 2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 For there is no partiality with God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.[/FONT]

 

[JonC]

The Law is not divided into moral and ceremonial. We may speak of God's law or moral law as expressed/revealed in the Law. But this is not saying Gentiles (even lost ones if we are to take Scripture seriously) were or are under the Law). We are often clumsy with our terms.

 

[kyredneck]

The Law is not divided into moral and ceremonial.

There is an aspect of the law to which we are still bound, held accountable, and will be judged by, and one from which we have been set free.

We are often clumsy with our terms.

The better contrast would probably be 'the spirit of the law' and 'the letter of the law'.

 

[BobRyan]

The Law is not divided into moral and ceremonial. We may speak of God's law or moral law as expressed/revealed in the Law. But this is not saying Gentiles (even lost ones if we are to take Scripture seriously) were or are under the Law). We are often clumsy with our terms.

Some do look at it that way - but not Paul.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 was said in direct contrast to "Circumcision" in that verse.

Thus it is that Charles Swindoll, Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry et al... freely admit to that divide - to the contrast between moral law and ceremonial law.

As we saw here - #26

 

[JonC]

Some do look at it that way - but not Paul.

Hi Bob.

I don’t doubt your words - “obey God.” I question the authority you quote - “Torah” or a fragment thereof, instead of God. When we misuse "the Law (Torah)" we come up with some really goofy ideas by taking Scripture out of context (e.g., convict people under the Law, the Law as our Schoolmaster, etc). If you are speaking of "the Law" outside of Torah...and the Ten Commandments....and taking "the Law" to mean obedience as exhibited by Christ, obedience to God's commands, then I would agree with you. I just don't know that you've made that distinction.

The Law (Torah) was an expression of God’s moral righteousness. This is not only moral aspects of the Law, but also ceremonial aspects as well (the Law - Torah - cannot be broken). The Law meets its fulfillment in Christ. If you understand Paul then you understand that the Law speaks to those under the Law, but the same righteousness is written in the hearts and conscience of those not under Torah (Romans 2-3). There is a distinctiveness between the Law (Torah, to include of course the Ten Commandments given therein) and the moral Law. 1 Corinthians 7:19 also brings to mind Romans 2:25 (if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision). You are right that we obey the commandments of God - but you are wrong that this is a reference to Torah. It is reference to God’s command, the revelation of His own righteousness (granted, as expressed in Torah….but you have, theologically, the tail wagging the dog).

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:21-26

I question the direction we are gazing, as a church, when we take our eyes of Christ and place ourselves under the Law. The Law was fulfilled in Christ and we would be obedient seeking shelter in Him. If we are in Christ, then we will obey His commandments. But Torah is not our authority. It may sound the same, and perhaps it would turn out the same, but it isn't the same.

 

[BobRyan]

Some do look at it that way - but not Paul.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 was said in direct contrast to "Circumcision" in that verse.

Thus it is that Charles Swindoll, Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry et al... freely admit to that divide - to the contrast between moral law and ceremonial law.

As we saw here - #26

Hi Bob.

I don’t doubt your words - “obey God.” I question the authority you quote - “Torah” or a fragment thereof, instead of God. When we misuse "the Law (Torah)" we come up with some really goofy ideas

The accusation is there - but where is the "substance"?? proof??

The Law (Torah) was an expression of God’s moral righteousness. This is not only moral aspects of the Law, but also ceremonial aspects as well (the Law - Torah - cannot be broken). The Law meets its fulfillment in Christ.

Paul says we are to "fulfill the law" in Romans 13 - you do know that right?

Does he mean we are to fulfill the law of animal sacrifices in Romans 13?

Let's look.


Rom 13 NASB
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 6
Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Is it really true that this is all talking about animal sacrifice just as much as honoring Parents etc?

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 is in direct CONTRAST to circumcision the very contrast you argue cannot exist!

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

If you understand Paul then you understand that the Law speaks to those under the Law, but the same righteousness is written in the hearts and conscience of those not under Torah (Romans 2-3). There is a distinctiveness between the Law (Torah, to include of course the Ten Commandments given therein) and the moral Law.

As noted above - even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship knows that moral law was given in the OT along with animal sacrifice laws and ceremonies.

1 Corinthians 7:19 also brings to mind Romans 2:25 (if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision). You are right that we obey the commandments of God - but you are wrong that this is a reference to Torah.

Until you read the NT and find that when the Commandments are listed it is always -- always a quote of "scripture" - the OT. The TEN Commandments as in the case of Eph 6:2 where the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" -- a statement ONLY true inside the unit of TEN - the unit that even the majority of pro-SUNDAY scholars admit to.

A point so glaringly obvious BOTH sides of the debate admit to it!!

Let's keep our eyes on Christ's teaching.

Christ's thinking on the subject of breaking one of God's Commandments by claiming to bend-edit slightly-modify one of them.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

 

[vooks]

The accusation is there - but where is the "substance"?? proof??




Paul says we are to "fulfill the law" in Romans 13 - you do know that right?

Does he mean we are to fulfill the law of animal sacrifices in Romans 13?

Let's look.


Rom 13 NASB
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 6
Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Is it really true that this is all talking about animal sacrifice just as much as honoring Parents etc?

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 is in direct CONTRAST to circumcision the very contrast you argue cannot exist!

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.




As noted above - even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship knows that moral law was given in the OT along with animal sacrifice laws and ceremonies.



Until you read the NT and find that when the Commandments are listed it is always -- always a quote of "scripture" - the OT. The TEN Commandments as in the case of Eph 6:2 where the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" -- a statement ONLY true inside the unit of TEN - the unit that even the majority of pro-SUNDAY scholars admit to.

A point so glaringly obvious BOTH sides of the debate admit to it!!

Let's keep our eyes on Christ's teaching.

Christ's thinking on the subject of breaking one of God's Commandments by claiming to bend-edit slightly-modify one of them.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it's traditions and "doctrines of men" are at odds with scripture.

I have 66 books of the scriptures. How do I pick the moral from the rest?

 

[JonC]

The accusation is there - but where is the "substance"?? proof??

It’s right here:

Paul says we are to "fulfill the law" in Romans 13 - you do know that right?

Paul says, in Romans 13, that we have fulfilled the law when we love our neighbor. He does not say that we are to “full a part of Torah, the moral Law part, which is apart from the ceremonial Law.” I am not saying that you believe we are under the Law, but some blur passages to suit their needs (e.g., we should convict people under the Law).

What I am saying is that many (not necessarily you) are inconsistent and clumsy with Scripture. They say the right things but misuse passages to back up their claims. It is not that we are under the Law, but that we are in Christ, that we have fulfilled the law. It is not that the lost are under the Law, but that they are not in Christ that they are condemned. I believe Paul is often speaking positional in Romans...but for some reason some keep going back to Torah.

 

[BobRyan]

I have 66 books of the scriptures. How do I pick the moral from the rest?

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19 had a pretty good Bible answer #2 .

Did you read it?

 

[BobRyan]

It’s right here:

Paul says, in Romans 13, that we have fulfilled the law when we love our neighbor. He does not say that we are to “full a part of Torah, the moral Law part, which is apart from the ceremonial Law.”

So then is Paul saying we are to fulfill the animal-sacrifice law as well?

Or is that something Christ did? Even the pro-Sunday sources in that list would say it is something that Christ did when it comes to laws regarding animal sacrifice - not something we do.

I am not saying that you believe we are under the Law, but some blur passages to suit their needs (e.g., we should convict people under the Law).

What I am saying is that many (not necessarily you) are inconsistent and clumsy with Scripture. They say the right things but misuse passages to back up their claims.

You are saying that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars including the "Baptist Confession of Faith" are "clumsy" and you do so without paying attention to the details of how the subject is treated in the text of scripture.

==============

[FONT=&quot]Are God's Ten Commandments still valid ??

That is the primary question to be answered on this section of the board.

And the irrefutable response from scripture is ... "yes".

========================

Here we have the NT text providing examples from the TEN Commandments -- affirming them as "still" valid.

And of course scripture is -- true.

=========================

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Note:

Paul says in Romans 3 that this is the Law that defines sin and condemns the entire world as sinners... that would not be "the Law about Passover". That does not condemn gentiles at all.

The context in Romans 3 is the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world[/FONT][FONT=&quot] may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by the law is the knowledge of sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being [/FONT][FONT=&quot]witnessed by the Law and the Prophets[/FONT][FONT=&quot],
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ministry of death, written and engraved on stones[/FONT][FONT=&quot], was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.




Rom 13

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Do not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT=&quot],”
also said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Do not commit murder.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty


[/FONT]

 

[JonC]

So then is Paul saying we are to fulfill the animal-sacrifice law as well?

Or is that something Christ did? Even the pro-Sunday sources in that list would say it is something that Christ did when it comes to laws regarding animal sacrifice - not something we do.





You are saying that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars including the "Baptist Confession of Faith" are "clumsy" and you do so without paying attention to the details of how the subject is treated in the text of scripture.

============== ]

I am pointing out that Paul has said the Law (Torah) cannot be broken and is fulfilled in Christ. Paul, not I, places us outside the Law (Torah). If man disagrees then their disagreement is with Paul and God, not me.

 

[BobRyan]

"Places us outside the Law" is an interesting quote...of??

=====================================

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]THIS Gospel of the kingdom[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Matt 24[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]WE have had the Gospel preached to US Just as they did also[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Heb 4:2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Only ONE Gospel – Gal 1:6-9[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 14:[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT]5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Love Me and KEEP My Commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Ex 20[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The saints “KEEP the Commandments of God AND Their faith in Jesus[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Rev 14:12

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" Rom 3:31

1John 5
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2By this we know that we love the children of God, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]when we love God and observe His commandments. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3For this is the love of God, that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]we keep His commandments[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; and His [/FONT][FONT=&quot]commandments are not burdensome[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Christ is not a legalist – but a Gospel preaching – New Covenant teacher[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even when He is correcting religionists – [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Mark 7
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
When Christ speaks of one of the Ten Commandments He tells us that they are the “Word of God” – the “Commandment of God” and “Moses said”

The Law accomplishes condemnation for the lost.

But for the saved - it is written on the mind and heart. The very part of the New Covenant most rejected by some and accepted by others.[/FONT]

ROMANS 6
[FONT=&quot]1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14For sin shall not be master over you[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" 1Cor 7:19[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” Rom 3:31[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

And I think that fits perfectly with

[FONT=&quot]Rom 13

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Do not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT=&quot],”
also said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Do not commit murder.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

[FONT=&quot]=====================================

[FONT=&quot]Is it any wonder then that these Bible details are sooo clear that [FONT=&quot]even t[FONT=&quot]he majori[FONT=&quot]ty of pro-Sunday scholarship sees the point???

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Thus it is that Charles Swindoll, Andy Stanley, D.L. Moody, C.H. Spurgeon, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith", Matthew Henry et al... freely admit to that divide - to the contrast between moral law and ceremonial law.

As we saw here - #26