Ceremonial vs Moral Laws

[JonC]

The problem with your theory is that sin existed before the Law Paul speaks of Gentiles as not being under the Law My objection is not with all being under Gods moral law, but your insistance thdy fall under Torah. Murder, theft, adultery, etc were sins BEFORE and apart from Torah and the 10 Commandments. Gods moral law is, of course, expressed in the 10 Commandments BUT the 10 Commandments are not Gods moral law. We are speaking of Gods commands and His moral law, not Torah.

 

[BobRyan]

Using your definition of what "existed before the Law" -- we have God's "Laws, Commandments and statutes' ALSO existing "before the Law".

[FONT=&quot]LAW BEFORE the SINAI tablets of TEN C.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Gen 26
5 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]''

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God said that He would continue to Bless Abraham's family[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Gen 26
5 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]''

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ex 16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but on the seventh[/FONT][FONT=&quot] day, the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] there will be none.''
27 It came about on [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Gen 4 (NASB)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] had regard for Abel and for his offering;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:4 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sin IS the transgression of the LAW[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 5:13 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is not imputed when [/FONT][FONT=&quot]there is no law[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Moses is writing Gen 26, Moses is writing Deut 27:10 as well[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his [/FONT][FONT=&quot]commandments and his statutes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which I command thee this day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And so also Deut 8:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deut 8:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 "Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping[/FONT][FONT=&quot] His commandments and His ordinances and His statutes[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which I am commanding you today; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[JonC]

Using your definition of what "existed before the Law" -- we have God's "Laws, Commandments and statutes' ALSO existing "before the Law".

I agree. My point was more of semantics…well, a bit more…it is theological as well. But the Ten Commandments did not govern those not under the Law (Torah). They are of course in line with God's law (they couldn't be otherwise as they reflect the nature of God). We are not obligated to obey the Ten Commandments per se, but the Ten Commandments are a part of what we are obligated to obey (God’s law - His laws, commandments and statutes). The difference comes in when someone thinks that they can divide the Law (Torah), or put the Church in the place of Israel under the Law, or confuse Pauline teachings as putting people under the Law to save them. If you want to sum up God's law as the "Ten Commandments" then have at it. It isn't exactly true, but in practice it's the same...maybe that's close enough. More power to ya.

 

[vooks]

Am still waiting for a scriptural distinction between Ceremonial and Moral laws

 

[BobRyan]

Using your definition of what "existed before the Law" -- we have God's "Laws, Commandments and statutes' ALSO existing "before the Law".

[FONT=&quot]LAW BEFORE the SINAI tablets of TEN C.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gen 26
5 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]''

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God said that He would continue to Bless Abraham's family[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Gen 26
5 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]''

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ex 16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but on the seventh[/FONT][FONT=&quot] day, the Sabbath[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] there will be none.''
27 It came about on [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the seventh day[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Gen 4 (NASB)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] had regard for Abel and for his offering;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Then the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 3:4 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Sin IS the transgression of the LAW[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 5:13 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is not imputed when [/FONT][FONT=&quot]there is no law[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Moses is writing Gen 26, Moses is writing Deut 27:10 as well[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his [/FONT][FONT=&quot]commandments and his statutes[/FONT][FONT=&quot], which I command thee this day[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And so also Deut 8:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deut 8:11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 "Beware that you do not forget the LORD your God by not keeping[/FONT][FONT=&quot] His commandments and His ordinances and His statutes[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which I am commanding you today; [/FONT]

How hard is this to understand according to post #2 of this thread??


let's see...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As promised - post #2.

D.L. Moody is not the only one to claim that the TEN Commandments are given to mankind in Eden and still binding on the saints today.

Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 almost identical to the Westminster section 19 quoted above.

Notice how they both fit that 7 point summary already posted on page 1?

[FONT=&quot]Baptist Confession of Faith Section 19 link[/FONT]


Section 19:

C.H. Spurgeon's edition of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- [FONT=&quot]CH Spurgeon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

“The Perpetuity of the Law of God”
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Very great mistakes have been made about the law. Not long ago there were those about us who affirmed that the law is utterly abrogated and abolished, and they openly taught that believers were not bound to make the moral law the rule of their lives. What would have been sin in other men they counted to be no sin in themselves. From such Antinomianism as that may God deliver us. We are not under the law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the law in the hand of Christ, and desire to obey the Lord in all things. Others have been met with who have taught that Jesus mitigated and softened down the law, and they have in effect said that the perfect law of God was too hard for imperfect beings, and therefore God has given us a milder and easier rule. These tread dangerously upon the verge of terrible error, although we believe that they are little aware of it.

Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" .

Section 19
. The Law of God

• God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

• The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

• Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

• To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it __________________

Originally Posted by Baptist Confession of Faith [FONT=&quot]Section 22.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Point 7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7. As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.[/FONT]