Cessation of gifts

[exscentric]

"There is no scripture that teaches the sign gifts went out with the apostles. "

Actually before the apostles went out would be better.

It is said of Paul in Acts 19.12 "So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them."

Then Phil. 2.26 he couldn't heal this man "For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death : but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow."

He could not heal himself.
He could not heal Timothy.
And he could not heal Trophimus (II Tim. 4.20)

Just for your consideration.

 

[swaimj]

Before I get into a biblical argument, I want to expand and defend a statement that I made on page one of this thread. In the time of Jesus and the apostles, sign gifts were very prominent. These signs included power over nature (such as stilling a storm), power over demonic forces (such as performing exorcisms), power over sickness (healings), and power over death (raising the dead). The best argument for cessation is the fact that no one today is performing these signs. PastorSBC dismissed this argument as “jumping through hoops”. But this argument is an argument based upon history. It is not unusual when we speak of revelation to argue in historical terms. For instance, think of the issue of the number of books in the New Testament. I think PastorSBC would agree that there are 27, but how do we know this? Do we know it by revelation? Is there a verse of scripture that tells us that are 27 books; nothing more, nothing less, nothing else? Do we know this by way of a miracle? No. We hold to 27 books for historical reasons. The early churches received many books and they evaluated these books by criteria which I do not have time to go into here. Over time, and in God’s providence, churches accepted the 27 books that we accept today. This is confirmed later by bishops and councils. So, a foundational aspect of our faith, the content of the New Testament, is arrived at apart from a biblical statement; dependent upon historical evidence. Consequently, a historical argument for cessation is perfectly valid. For non-cessationists, the question is simple and straightforward: Where are the signs? Who has power over nature, over demons, over sickness, and death? We simply do not see these miracles occurring today. That is the best evidence for cessation. Are you a non-cessationist? Don’t even bother giving me an argument from the scriptures for your position, just show me the miracles!

Can we find this pattern of cessation in scripture? The best evidence for it is in Hebrews 2:3b-4. The readers of the letter of Hebrews had received the gospel in a unique way. They heard it from people who were eyewitnesses and first-hand listeners to Jesus. The message these witnesses brought was confirmed through miraculous signs. It is clear that the writer places the messengers and their message in the past-tense. Now the believers were not seeing miracles. Instead they were experiencing persecution and discouragement. The writer’s challenge to them is not that more miracles are coming, his message is that they must now live by faith—apart from signs—in the finished work of Christ on the cross and in his continuing High-Priestly ministry in heaven. The pattern is clear. Living by sight is in the past. Now you must live by faith.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

The best argument for cessation is the fact that no one today is performing these signs. PastorSBC dismissed this argument as “jumping through hoops”. But this argument is an argument based upon history. It is not unusual when we speak of revelation to argue in historical terms.

What do you do with reports of such things on the mission field in places? I agree things are not happening often and they are not happening here in our own backyards. They stuff we see on TBN, etc, is just garabage and not at all what I am talking about!

Even if things are not present when you examine history, does that mean that they have ceased? Does God not work in ways at times that make no sense to us? Again, even though our history books do not testify of such things does not mean they were not taking place.

For instance, think of the issue of the number of books in the New Testament. I think PastorSBC would agree that there are 27, but how do we know this? Do we know it by revelation? Is there a verse of scripture that tells us that are 27 books; nothing more, nothing less, nothing else? Do we know this by way of a miracle? No. We hold to 27 books for historical reasons.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, there are 27 books and we know that from a historical perspective, but that in no way compares to proving cessation.

For non-cessationists, the question is simple and straightforward: Where are the signs? Who has power over nature, over demons, over sickness, and death? We simply do not see these miracles occurring today. That is the best evidence for cessation. Are you a non-cessationist? Don’t even bother giving me an argument from the scriptures for your position, just show me the miracles!

God has the power over all those things and I believe that He can still use people if He chooses to accomplish any and all of those things if He so chooses.

Again, I am not saying these things are happening often and all over. I just find no reason to limit God and say that He has ceased doing certain things, especially when there is no solid Scripture to support it.

I do not have any miracles to show you. But thats really not the issue. The issue is proving cessation from Scripture. And your focus so hard on history shows me once again the Scripture for this idea is pretty non-existant.

Can we find this pattern of cessation in scripture? The best evidence for it is in Hebrews 2:3b-4. The readers of the letter of Hebrews had received the gospel in a unique way. They heard it from people who were eyewitnesses and first-hand listeners to Jesus. The message these witnesses brought was confirmed through miraculous signs. It is clear that the writer places the messengers and their message in the past-tense. Now the believers were not seeing miracles. Instead they were experiencing persecution and discouragement. The writer’s challenge to them is not that more miracles are coming, his message is that they must now live by faith—apart from signs—in the finished work of Christ on the cross and in his continuing High-Priestly ministry in heaven. The pattern is clear. Living by sight is in the past. Now you must live by faith.

You talk of a pattern, yet you only give one passage to deal with. If there is a pattern, would there not be more Scripture to point to?

I do not see anything in Hebrews 2 that talks about cessation.

Are there others?

 

[Helen]

I am wondering if 'gifts' and 'miracles' are being mixed up here. Miracles do happen, but not on command, certainly! We can pray and God can say yes or no, just as He did with Paul's healing of people.

But gifts are gifts. Some of them can be called talents if you like. The gift of healing does not mean the gift of performing miracles -- it means the ability to understand both people and medicine in a way that brings the two together so that people are healed. I think we have all seen enough doctors to know there is a profound difference among some of them. There are some who are compassionate and understanding and knowledgeable and who seem to be able to do things other medical people can't. Then there are those who have simply been to medical school and are earning a good living dispensing medicines...

And the gift of languages/tongues? It must be marvelous to have the kind of ear and mind which can pick up and learn a variety of languages. Most of us can't do that. To be able to is certainly a gift/talent.

The one gift I know I have is teaching. To me, that is simply a form of interpreting. I have the ability -- certainly God-given -- to be able to take difficult concepts and bring them down into more lay-friendly terms and progressions. I love doing this, explaining things. It's not 'preaching' but teaching. It's what I can do. I can't heal (I'm pretty good at bandages, though...) and tongues is WAY beyond me, and I would never make a decent preacher. But I can teach.

I'm not particularly musical or artistic. I'm not mechanical. I can be easily deceived by apparent sincerity. I am not a prophet and my husband's faith astounds me (and I am trying to be more like him!). I had a horrid time administering a private school -- that is certainly not where my talents are...

But I can teach.

And I know people who can do all those other things extraordinarily well, each his own talent.

These are gifts. And these gifts, among believers, make up the body which helps itself and supports itself and maintains itself in this world now. (I am not saying we do not all rely on Christ, please, but am referencing 1 Corinthians 12 where Paul is saying the same).

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I am not talking about being slain in the Spirit or glossalalia. The Bible tells us that in the last days we will see miracles,men:godisgood: dreaming dreams, and prophecying. I believe that God answers prayer and have seen that happen many times. The Bible tells us that if any is sick in the church to go to the elders and get prayed over and get annointed with oil. We are given instructuions.I find when I pray coincidences happen.

 

[swaimj]

Yes, there are 27 books and we know that from a historical perspective, but that in no way compares to proving cessation.

It doesn't compare to cessation? Why?

God has the power over all those things and I believe that He can still use people if He chooses to accomplish any and all of those things if He so chooses.

Again, I am not saying these things are happening often and all over. I just find no reason to limit God and say that He has ceased doing certain things…

I am not placing a limit on God. The rocks can cry out if he desires it. But the rocks do not cry out. So I am not being irresponsible when I say that God is not working in the world today through the verbal preaching of rocks. There is nothing wrong with observing how God is working and seeking to define it.

You talk of a pattern, yet you only give one passage to deal with. If there is a pattern, would there not be more Scripture to point to?

The pattern is clear in that passage. In the past, those readers experienced the miracuolus. In the present they were not. This is cessation. If you don't see it there, I don't see what will make you see it in other examples.

 

[DQuixote]

I think they ceased as a means, or a tool, for illuminating the Good News, but that doesn't keep God from utilizing them in specific situations today.

I recall someone telling a Methodist preacher that God had healed his mother of whatever. The preacher replied "So he let my mother die?"

Healing is a "specific situation" today for me, but I can't explain why some are healed and others are not -- at least not to the satisfaction of those who have watched a loved one die.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

It doesn't compare to cessation? Why?

The 27 books of the NT are completely agreed upon in Orthodox Christianity.

Cessation of sign gifts is not even close to agreed upon.

Therefore your comparison does not hold up.

The pattern is clear in that passage. In the past, those readers experienced the miracuolus. In the present they were not. This is cessation. If you don't see it there, I don't see what will make you see it in other examples

If it was that clear why is it so debated today?

Is that just a nice way of saying there really are not other passages?

What do you do with accounts of miracles accompanying the proclamation of the Gospel on the mission field?

 

[webdog]

I am not talking about being slain in the Spirit or glossalalia.

glossa-who? I've never heard this before. What is it?

 

[Hope of Glory]

"There is no scripture that teaches the sign gifts went out with the apostles. "

Actually before the apostles went out would be better.

It is said of Paul in Acts 19.12 "So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them."

Then Phil. 2.26 he couldn't heal this man "For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death : but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow."

He could not heal himself.
He could not heal Timothy.
And he could not heal Trophimus (II Tim. 4.20)

Just for your consideration.

That's why I said between 59 and 62 AD. Before 59 AD, we have records of signs, wonders, and miracles. After 62 AD, we do not. So, what is "that which is perfect"? Well, after Acts 28:28, there are no records of signs, wonders, and miracles performed through men.

 

[Hope of Glory]

What do you do with reports of such things on the mission field in places?

Things that are experential should be suspect, even if one thinks that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed at the command of men are for today. Too many charlatans. (Also, I have met a handful of people who think that Scriptures says they have ceased, but they have "experienced" them, so they accept what they consider to be "contradiction". But, this is an exception, as most that I know who accept them think they are Scriptural.)

That being said, the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles were given to a select group of saved men for a specific reason, and I think that Scriptures support that "that which is perfect" has come.

Islamic Imams speak in tongues and perform other "miracles".

Those in other pagan religions do, as well.

But, for a saved person? I think that God sometimes gives us what we ask for, even if it's not what he wants for us.

Think about the children of Israel. He wanted them to have manna. They whined and complained that they wanted meat. He let 'em have it!

It made them sick.

As an aside: Most documented cases of "tongues" is simply gibberish. The word "unknown" never appears in Scriptures with "tongues".

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Things that are experential should be suspect, even if one thinks that the signs, wonders, and miracles performed at the command of men are for today.

I have shared this story before, but here is an example of what I am talking about. While in seminary one of the professor with whom I have the greatest deal of respect and admiration shared with us a story from his time in Brazil as a missionary. He went to the mission field as a believer in cessation, but left believing that cessation was not true.

Not too long after arriving he was given the opportunity to preach the gospel with an interpreter. He had not finished launguage school and was not prepared to do this on his own. However, he showed up for the message and his interpreter was no where to be found. He did not know what to do but get up and do the best he could. He said he stood up to preach the gospel and was able to speak perfectly in their own launguage. When he sat back down he was not able to speak any more than he did before hand.

He believed that this was a modern day example of the gift of tongues in action--the proclamation of the gospel in a groups native tongue.

Now was that not a sign gift in action? I believe it was.

If cessation is true, how do things like that happen around the world?

 

[Hope of Glory]

If cessation is true, how do things like that happen around the world?

I stated how things like that could happen: We want it, even if it's not part of God's will.

However, that is not intended to be a statement on this specific case, because that is the way that the gift of tongues was intended to be used.

It would make things easier, if there simply a verse somewhere that says: "Tongues are for today/not for today", but that's not the way God works. Here a little, there a little.

However, here locally, the opposite happened. A man from Brazil had come up to visit a teacher at the Bible college. They went to his semi-pentecostal church. Afterward, the Brazilian told Gary, "He was speaking my language, and he wasn't saying what the so-called interpreter was saying."

In this same vein, I am convinced that there is a lot of demonic activity going on locally. There is supposedly a "nexus" 9 miles up the road (out in the middle of nowhere) that "good magic" centers. People travel from all over the world to get to it. Many of them remain here. Is there a nexus? I doubt it. I don't know if Satan uses such things. But, because people who buy into it gather here.

I know a young man from the Bible college who was sitting in McD's, eating a couple of cheeseburgers, waiting for his wife to get off work, and this goth looking guy was just staring at him. The guy gets up, walks over to him, and in this "strange" (his voice gave the word inflection) voice simply said, "God's work will not be done here!" He had never seen the man before or since.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

I stated how things like that could happen: We want it, even if it's not part of God's will.

However, that is not intended to be a statement on this specific case, because that is the way that the gift of tongues was intended to be used.

I am not sure I follow you. So it is not part of God's will, but it still happens from time to time?

I think actually the reverse is true. People claim cessation because that is how they want it and it makes them more comfortable with things.

I have never been clear on how people can say well it still happens at times, but cessation is still true.

I do agree that there is a lot of abuse out there and 95%+ of what is out there today is garbage.

But I do not think we can claim from Scripture that the gifts have ceased.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I am not sure I follow you. So it is not part of God's will, but it still happens from time to time?

Like the children of Israel.

God's will was for them to eat manna.

They whined and complained that they wanted meat.

God gave it to them until it ran out their noses.

Not God's will, but he gave them what they wanted.

By the same token, the purpose for the sign-gifts performed at the will of men has passed, from what I see in Scriptures. Even Paul could no longer do them.

 

[J. Jump]

I have not kept up with the entirety of this thread, but I think semantics plays a part in this discussion as much as it does with any other discussion. I don't think cessation of gifts would be a good way to put it, because the signs gifts haven't ceased, as much as they have been put on hold.

The reason being is that the whole purpose for the sign gifts isn't even relevant at this point in human history. Signs were given for unbelieving Jews in relation to the gospel of the kingdom.

The gospel of the kingdom is no longer an offer to the nation of Israel, therefore there is no purpose at this point for sign gifts. However at a point in the future the purpose of the signs will return as God turns His attention back to Israel.

Signs are for Jews not Gentiles. And I thik HOG has hit on a very probable answer in that Satan can manifest "his" signs as well so as to confuse. And there is MUCH confusion today when it comes to the gospel of the kingdom, just as Scripture also tells us there will be.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Not God's will, but he gave them what they wanted.

So the story I shared about the gospel being proclaimed in a groups native language was not God's will?

 

[J. Jump]

So the story I shared about the gospel being proclaimed in a groups native language was not God's will?

Not everything that "looks" good is God's will. Just look at those that cried Lord, Lord and listed the many "good" things they had done and the response they received from Christ.

Is casting out demons not God's will? Doesn't look like it was in that case.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Not everything that "looks" good is God's will. .

The Gospel being proclaimed is NOT God's will?

I just don't see how anyone can say that ever.

 

[J. Jump]

The Gospel being proclaimed is NOT God's will?

I just don't see how anyone can say that ever.

Again how could casting out a demon ever not be God's will? But it sure wasn't in that case. We can't let "our" perception get in the way of Scripture, right?