Change of man's MORAL nature in the Fall

[The Biblicist]

Again,

1. Solomon says Adam was created "upright" and that does not refer to his physical posture but to his moral nature. Scripture says Adam was made "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE" and that at minimum includes that "upright" moral condition. This is based on clear scripture (Gen. 1:26; Eccles. 12:7). By sin man fell from that upright moral condition into an immoral condition - called death - spiritual separation from God which by nature such separation from God IS sin - thus a STATE OF SIN(Gen. 2:17).
   
   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:... - Gen. 1:26a
   
   But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Gen. 2:17
   
   Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. - Eccl. 7:29
   
   
   New Birth not merely restores spiritual union with God, not merely restores the moral image of God but does restores to a SUPERIOR union which is not mutable, and superior moral image which is not mutable in order to populate a SUPERIOR creation to come and this is based on clear explicit Scripture:
   
   And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. - Eph. 4:24
   
   And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: - Col. 3:10
   
   Furthermore, the unregenerate condition is described by Paul as being in a state "without God" and a STATE OF SIN due to spiritual separation from God and all based on explicit Scripture:
   
   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: - Eph. 2:12
   
   Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
   19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
   
   After the fall, fallen man was beget after the fallen Adam's image rather than the image of God:
   
   And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:...and he died......and he died....and he died.....and he died....and he died.....and he died.
   
   Life was the result of being made in the image of God, Death is the result of being in the image of the fallen Adam because death was "passed" down through the male seed.
   
   My view is not based upon mere myth or assumptions but upon clear explicit scriptures whether or not you agree with my interpretation of those scriptures. I think I can defend my interpretations and demonstrate the truth of my position.
   
   
2. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Rom. 5:12
   
   Sin and death "entered the world" by the act of one man - Adam. When God had finished his creation on the sixth day, there was no sin, death and Satan in that world or else he could not say everything was "very good" (Gen. 1:31). Lucifer the unfallen angel existed on that day. Man in the image of God existed on that day.

Again,

These conditions of the unregenerate state of man described by Paul but originate in the person of Adam are descriptive of his SPIRITUAL CONDITION as much as our spiritual condition. These are all descriptives of what it means to be in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God. However, such things are impossible unless first the very reverse was true in the prefallen SPIRITUAL CONDITION of Adam. It requires LIFE for death to occur. It requires LIGHT for darkness to occur. It requires HOLINESS for "uncleaness" to occur. It requires LOVE for enmity ("being past feeling, hardness of heart) to occur. It requires SPIRITUAL UNION for spiritual separation to occur. Hence, a CHANGE OF MORAL NATURE occured at the fall.

Hence, Paul's description of the unregenerate state of ALL MANKIND must first be the unregenerate state of fallen Adam. Here is Pauls description of the unregenerate state:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. - Eph. 4:18-19

This state did not begin with post-Adamic men but with Adam at the point of his fall. These are descriptions of a state of spiritual separation from God as,

1. God is LIGHT - "darkened"
2. God is LIFE - "alienated from the life of God"
3. God is LOVE - "being past feeling"
4. God is HOLY - "given themselves over...to all uncleaness"

These are the direct results of Adam's sin in the person of Adam in the day he sinned. He suffered Spiritual separation from God and you cannot be separated from something you were not in union with.

Moreover, the whole human nature in its undivided state existed and acted in the Person of Adam when Adam sinned and that is what Paul means when he says "for all have sinned" (Rom.5:12) and that is what he is arguing and proving in verses 13-14 showing that no other law could justify death in human beings between Adam and Moses other than violation of Genesis 2:17. Hence, all mankind existed and sinned as one undivided human nature in Adam and therefore death is justified even from conception in the womb for all of mankind. Thus, the fallen human nature of Adam is what is "passed" down from Adam to all mankind which is a STATE OF DEATH or spiritual separtion from God that justifies sin of a baby in the womb of the mother.

 

[JonC]

More hot air without a shred of scriptural evidence. Because the upgrade - immutable righteousnes - is by divine fiat

Because the spiritual union is by divine fiat and is immutable



More hot air without a single shred of scriptural support. Adam's righteousness was God's righteousness. Christ's righeousness was the righteousness of God - both equally derived from God's nature but Adam's was mutable.



More hot air wihtout a single shred of scriptural support. It is the very same union as union with God is spiritual and Adam received it by a creative act of God and so do we but ours is not mutable.

The difference lies in the Creative nature of our spiritual nature versus the creative nature of Adam's spiritual nature.

If you find Scripture lacking in those points then perhaps you would do better to spend more time in them rather than wondering how they can be twisted into your narrative.

Judging the idea that redemption is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law, or that we are made new creations as "hot air without a shread of Scripture" says more of you than my comments.

Scripture is not a bunch of ideas from which we can pick and choose. Scripture dictates (or should dictate) our doctrine - NOT the other way around.

What you are doing is providing passages and then providing your narrative or myth to carry the text. No where does Scripture speak of Adam as having held two natures. Nowhere does Scripture speak of redemption as restoring or perfecting natural man. Nowhere does Scripture say the righteousness of God is a moral righteousness. Nowhere does Scripture say that Adam was "spiritually alive", or that his nature changed, or that there was a "pre-Fall" and "post-Fall" nature, or that we will be restored man (version 2.0).

 

[The Biblicist]

No, no, and NO. GOD IS HOLY. God is not merely a "moral being".

I never limited God to being "JUST" a moral being? If you think so, then quote me to that effect? I simply said God has a moral nature as righteousness and holiness are moral values.

 

[The Biblicist]

If you find Scripture lacking in those points then perhaps you would do better to spend more time in them rather than wondering how they can be twisted into your narrative.

Judging the idea that redemption is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law, or that we are made new creations as "hot air without a shread of Scripture" says more of you than my comments.

Scripture is not a bunch of ideas from which we can pick and choose. Scripture dictates (or should dictate) our doctrine - NOT the other way around.

What you are doing is providing passages and then providing your narrative or myth to carry the text. No where does Scripture speak of Adam as having held two natures. Nowhere does Scripture speak of redemption as restoring or perfecting natural man. Nowhere does Scripture say the righteousness of God is a moral righteousness. Nowhere does Scripture say that Adam was "spiritually alive", or that his nature changed, or that there was a "pre-Fall" and "post-Fall" nature, or that we will be restored man (version 2.0).

You don't answer with scriptures, you don't deal with scriptures provided. You don't show how scriptures have been misinterpreted. In short, you operate purely in philosophical hot air and frankly what you say is not worth the time or effort to even respond to.

 

[Van]

Again,
"Van says "we are made sinners at conception" but Paul says by one man's act of disobedience (not God's act) we were made sinners. Van makes God a partner with iniquity as he blames God for creating the human spirit "in" iniquity whereas Paul says "death" (the state of sin) is "PASSED" not something newly created by God at each conception."

Van says what the Bible says:

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Psa 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Our fallen corrupt spiritually dead state is passed to all people spiritually, just as it was to Eve. God is the Creator, and because of Adam's sin, His curse made all mankind sinners from conception. We were conceived in a sinful state of separation, spiritually dead and spiritually corrupted. Our human spirit is not passed to us by our fathers, it is formed within us by God.

 

[JonC]

You don't answer with scriptures, you don't deal with scriptures provided. You don't show how scriptures have been misinterpreted. In short, you operate purely in philosophical hot air and frankly what you say is not worth the time or effort to even respond to.

See? We think alike.

The issue is that you have thus far not proved your point with Scripture. You have made many claims about the fatal flaw in man's nature, how Adam did not have it at first, how Christ came that we may have Adam's previous life and that life unchanging...etc.

But you have not provided even one passage that proves your point. And that IS my point.

 

[The Biblicist]

Genesis 3 demonstrates there was a change in the moral nature of Adam. Prior to that event he was without sin, within inclination toward sin, he was righteous or upright in moral nature. At the fall, his inclination toward sin changed. His moral nature changed from righteous to unrighteous.

He suffered spiritual separation from God at the very moment he sinned, which was not in the external action of eating but in the intent of will to willfully commit that act. The "death" that came into the world by that sin was the STATE or MORAL CONDITION of Sin due to his willful intent as spiritual separation from God is a STATE OF sin. We have provided scriptures in the more lengthy posts above to support this explanation.

The fact is that he no longer could be called "upright" as he was prior to the fall (Eccles. 7:29) but changed from that moral condition to a sinful state.

 

[HankD]

MORAL

Being "MORAL" is simply the ability to express or operate according moral values of right and wrong. Moral is not restricted to right and it is not restricted to wrong but is the capacity to express or operate by either or both. God is a moral being who immutably expresses holy values. Man was created with a moral capacity to express either right or wrong but was created righteous and designed to operate in righteousness.

I know this is not a political forum, however here is a good ILLUSTRATION of the overall inconsistency of MORALITY.

Certain politicians consider building a wall on our southern border to be an IMMORAL act but the act of abortion is a MORAL act.

 

[The Biblicist]

See? We think alike.

The issue is that you have thus far not proved your point with Scripture. You have made many claims about the fatal flaw in man's nature, how Adam did not have it at first, how Christ came that we may have Adam's previous life and that life unchanging...etc.

But you have not provided even one passage that proves your point. And that IS my point.

Again, pure hot air when you say "thus far not proved your point with scripture" as you have not proved my interpretation of scripture wrong either - so, again pure hot air. Every statement you make is not accompanied by any scripture. Every statement you make about my view of scripture is not accompanied by any Biblical evidence - none, zilch, nada!

However, at least I provide scripture, and I provide intepretation and I defend my interpretative view point. Try it for once, you might like it!

 

[JonShaff]

Here is my point...

As we read Genesis 1-3, we learn of some specific truths that are explicitly mentioned. Throughout the Rest of the Scriptures (progressive revelation) we learn many more details. I don't believe that we can go past what Scripture says though. Adam's nature is only defined by so many terms. And we know the results of his nature.

 

[MB]

For some reason this post did not post correctly

 

[InTheLight]

Again,

1. Solomon says Adam was created "upright"

Again,

We know, we know.

Repeating it ten times doesn't improve your argument.

 

[The Biblicist]

We know, we know.

Repeating it ten times doesn't improve your argument.

It does when the one attempting to refute it fails to do so! Solomon said "God made man" and God did not make any other man than Adam as all other men are procreated.

 

[JonShaff]

It does when the one attempting to refute it fails to do so! Solomon said "God made man" and God did not make any other man than Adam as all other men are procreated.

So, the same nature that Adam was created in was the same nature he "fell" in. And we have Adam's nature. So, tell me again, how did his nature change?

 

[JonShaff]

So, the same nature that Adam was created in was the same nature he "fell" in. And we have Adam's nature. So, tell me again, how did his nature change?

For the record, i would say we are born dead in our spirit man. I believe our nature is the same as Adam at creation, but our spirit man is dead.

 

[37818]

You make helpful observations...one thing that strikes me as interesting, is the Fact that Adam actually added more of the image of God onto his person by knowing good and evil now, per God's statement in Genesis 3:22.

But it is man having the knowledge of good and evil which is the cause of man's sinful nature. Remember God is infinite good. Man was created only a finite good being, the knowledge of evil did him and us all harm in which we all now have this sinful nature.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is my point...

As we read Genesis 1-3, we learn of some specific truths that are explicitly mentioned. Throughout the Rest of the Scriptures (progressive revelation) we learn many more details. I don't believe that we can go past what Scripture says though. Adam's nature is only defined by so many terms. And we know the results of his nature.

How much Biblical evidence do you need??? Moses says man was made "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE" and Paul uses the very term "image" when describing the regenerate man to claim it represents that "image", How? "In true righteousness and holiness." So, you cannot deny that if man was made in God's "image" that image has a moral aspect.

Solomon says "God MADE man upright" and that term "upright" is a moral description of righteousness as it is translated "righteous" 9 times in scripture. So, how can you deny Adam was originally "righteous" by God although mutable in nature??

Adam never sinned until chapter 3 which means his righteousness prior to chapter 3 was a sinless righteousness or else "sinned" has no moral value. Sin is defined as transgression of God's Law and God's law is the standard of moral values "right" and "wrong" and reveals what? THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of God (Rom.3:21).

To say there is insufficient clearly stated scripture to demonstrate Adam was made with a moral nature, moral capacity and made righteous as to his prefallen moral nature is simply to ignore these very clear statements. How many statements would it take to say God is holy before you would believe that? 1, 2, 3, a dozen?

to claim that a change of moral nature did not occur at the fall is ludcrious as scripture repeatedly states that by his one act sin entered the world and he became a sinner at that point which prior to he was not. Seems clear and simple to me.

 

[The Biblicist]

Finally, that "death" which was passed on is the condition or state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God which is a STATE of sin because it is sin to be spiritually separated from God. It is sin to be alienated from the life of God. It is sin "being past feeling." It is sin to be "given over unto...all uncleaness" and that is the spirtual state of the unregenerate man (Eph. 4:18-19).

This spiritual state of man had no existence before the fall - hence a change in the moral condition of man "in that day" occurred and it is obvious and indisputably clear to any reader that is objective and without bias.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree! Spiritual death begets the process of physical death, but not vice versa. What "died" in that day was his spirit - meaning spiritual separation from the source of life - God "being alienated from the life of God" is Paul's description of the unregnerate state (Eph. 4:18) which in turn initiated the process of corruption in the physical body which ended in physical death and apart from salvation continues into Second Death after the judgement.

The unregenerate condition of being alienated from the life of God did not begin with any man this side of Adam and did not begin with any sin this side of Adam but with his sin "in the day" he sinned. Death at its root is spiritual separation from God and then is manifested above ground as physical death and the second death.

To get the garden wrong is to open the floodgates to all manner of error which of necessity spills over into almost every area of theology.
We often see on message boards emotion trying to overrule scripture, to no avail.
As you have laid out, the restoration of the fallen Image bearer man, to a new creation conformed to the Image of the Son, is so vital God has predestined it to happen:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

1cor15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[JonShaff]

To get the garden wrong is to open the floodgates to all manner of error which of necessity spills over into almost every area of theology.
We often see on message boards emotion trying to overrule scripture, to no avail.
As you have laid out, the restoration of the fallen Image bearer man, to a new creation conformed to the Image of the Son, is so vital God has predestined it to happen:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

1cor15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

What you assert is correct, it is vital. And to say that redemption is about a restoration of man's nature *plus* it being immutable is to misunderstand what happened in the Garden and to misunderstand what is the Purpose of Christ's work.