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Changing denominations
- Thread starter Matt Black
- Start date
ktn4eg said:
I (along with 99.99% of the rest of the UK population who know the lyrics) only know the first verse:
"God save our gracious Queen
Long live our noble Queen
God save the Queen
Send her victorious
Happy and glorious
Long to reign over us
God save our Queen"
(There are further verses but only about three and a half people in the country can be bothered to remember them)
One of the best treasures from UK to outside world may be the true history about the earliest christianity there. Someone suggest that even Apostle Paul preached there when the records say " isles" or someone in 1 century AD latest. Who preserve those historical facts? COE ? or any others? that's the most interesting to me.
I've never heard anything about St Paul visiting us but there is a very popular legend that Joseph of Arimathea brought the young Jesus to Britain on a trading visit and that after the Resurrection Joseph brought a fragment of the Cross to the town of Glastonbury.
(But the people who believe that also tend to believe the Da Vinci Code and Rennes-le-Chateau nonsense
)
(But the people who believe that also tend to believe the Da Vinci Code and Rennes-le-Chateau nonsense
)Matt Black said:I've never heard anything about St Paul visiting us but there is a very popular legend that Joseph of Arimathea brought the young Jesus to Britain on a trading visit and that after the Resurrection Joseph brought a fragment of the Cross to the town of Glastonbury.
(But the people who believe that also tend to believe the Da Vinci Code and Rennes-le-Chateau nonsense
So far what we can confirm thru Bible is this:
Romans 15:
19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. ( Illyricum is Yugoslavia)
24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.
Titus went to Yugoslavia as well.
2 tim 4
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
Though Paul may have not been the person in UK, I heard that there was a certain Christian missionary in Britain before the end of 1 c. and I expect COE may have the records of the earlist Christians there.
Anglo Saxon were converted later than Celtics I think. Also, you may know that the St. Patrik in Ireland was not the Catholic but the Baptist!
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Matt Black said:
The Anglican Church's devotion to Christ's Kingdom, will have to be put on hold until such time as God again "takes it up". It is in abeyance now.
Meaning?
Eliyahu, sorry to disappoint you but despite the 'Whig version of History' trying to claim him as some kind of proto-Protestant, Patrick was a Catholic-Orthodox-type, as were the other Celtic saints, as devoted to the Virgin Mary for example as the most ardent Papist.
The Anglo-Saxons were indeed converted after the Celts, partly because they came to Britain later on, by a mixture of Celtic (eg: Aidan) and Roman (eg: Augustine) missionaries
Eliyahu, sorry to disappoint you but despite the 'Whig version of History' trying to claim him as some kind of proto-Protestant, Patrick was a Catholic-Orthodox-type, as were the other Celtic saints, as devoted to the Virgin Mary for example as the most ardent Papist.
The Anglo-Saxons were indeed converted after the Celts, partly because they came to Britain later on, by a mixture of Celtic (eg: Aidan) and Roman (eg: Augustine) missionaries
Matt Black said:
We may need some verification. This is why your presence there can help clarify the issues.
[FONT=바탕]The old British churches were of great antiquity, originating around the close of the apostolic age, and remaining isolated from the mainstream of religious change. With the impending collapse of the Roman Empire, Britain was abandoned and its Roman garrisons sent home to Rome in 410. The churches, along with much of the population, were soon pushed back into Wales and Western Britain by the invading Saxons around 449 A.D. It is about this time that a Briton Christian named Patrick took the Gospel to Ireland (Patrick was a Baptist, not a Catholic!). Patrick was born in Scotland in 387, his father was a deacon in the local Briton church. In 403 Patrick was kidnapped and taken into slavery in Ireland. In 410 he escaped from Ireland and returned home. In 432, Patrick returned to Ireland with 12 men to evangelize the Irish. Many were converted and baptized under his ministry. He died in 465, on the mission field, in Ireland. The issue over the date of Easter demonstrates that the Britons received their Christianity from Syria, possibly from the Montanists, and not from Rome. They rejected Catholic baptism, and obviously practiced congregational rule. Although these ancient churches were consigned to obscurity, they still played a role in subsequent events.[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][/FONT]
http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm
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A slightly biased source if I may say so. Joseph of Arimethea/ Glastonbury legends aside, we don't really know when the Gospel reached these Isles. Until the 4th century we know very little about Christians in Britain; we know from archaeology that there were believers at Lullingstone in Kent, places near Peterborough and in Dorset; there are even traces about 40 miles away from me in Silchester and by the martyrdom of St Alban in the early 3rd century there were clerly Christians here. We do know for sure that 3 bishops from Britain attended the Council of Arles in 314 (the year after Christianity was legalised). Then of course we have the British monk Pelagius who in the earcly 4th century preached - or at least so we are told by his detractors and also his followers such as Celestine - a form of salvation by works.
As to Patrick and Celtic Christianity, the differences with Rome were more - as with Rome's differences with Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria - more about authority and jurisdiction than doctrine. Irish monasticism, for example, was via Martin of Tours (Gaul) heavily influenced by the Desert Fathers of Egyptian monasticism such as St Anthony of the Desert - and has very little in common with modern Baptists I can assure you!
I can give you more material if you want.
As to Patrick and Celtic Christianity, the differences with Rome were more - as with Rome's differences with Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria - more about authority and jurisdiction than doctrine. Irish monasticism, for example, was via Martin of Tours (Gaul) heavily influenced by the Desert Fathers of Egyptian monasticism such as St Anthony of the Desert - and has very little in common with modern Baptists I can assure you!
I can give you more material if you want.
Matt Black said:
That part of history will be interesting to the people outside UK. I am sure that the Christianity reached China before 86AD as China discovered such Christian monument dated that year. If so, even Britain could have Christianity earlier than 5 c. The ancient Christians were not lazy as we are. I think COE may have preserved the accurate history available about it.
Interesting, though I know little about this part.
You may find this article of Celtic Christianity informative; it's pretty accurate from what I can make out. More on Joseph of Arimathea and the various theories about the evangelisation of Britain can be found here; I'll leave you to decide which bits are fact and which legend (although Eusebius is generally reliable)! A sample of typical Celtic Christian prayers can be found here; note in particular #47 to #52 - I'll likewise leave you to decide whether you'd ever get a Baptist praying those!
Thanks for the information. It is interesting that Celtic Christians paid so much attention to the calcualtion of Easter. I haven't read thru about the Arimathea but it seems to be a kind of legend plus plausible missionary story. I was saddened to hear from CNN that one of the oldest methodist churches becomes a Mosque.Matt Black said:
http://javascript<b></b>:cnnVideo('...07/06/17/newton.uk.mosque.cnn','2009/06/16');
I can give you a bit more info about my local area which lies roughyl halfway between the major south coast port cities of Portsmouth and Southampton. It is an area partly defined by the River Meon . This valley was colonised at some point in the 6th century by a Jutish clan (from North Germany), the Meonwara, as far as the village of West Meon; they never got as far as East Meon, to which the Britons/Celts/Welsh/whatever you want to call them retreated; even today the descendants of these two tribes living in these two villages dislike each other! The Meonwara were of course pagan, but were effectively evangelised in the 7th century by St Wilfrid. Towards the mouth of the river, and about a mile from my house lies the village of Titchfield, with its church of St Peter's, which almost certainly was founded by St Wilfrid; the building certainly dates from around 680 (which is slightly before the time when Wilfrid was evangelising there and in neghbouring Sussex) although it like most old churches has been added to over the centuries. Further up the Meon is the village of Warnford; the Latin inscription in the church in part translates "What Wilfrid founded well I, Adam (de Port) rebuilt", indicating that here again is a church orginally planted by St Wilfrid in the 680s-690s. Two miles downstream at Corhampton is a church dating from 1020, so the whole valley is rich in ecclesiatical heritage. All these churches are still active with the exception I believe of Warnford
Our new church is situated in Stubbington, about two miles from Titchfield. The CofE parish there contains two churches; ours, Holyrood, is the new church dating from 1872 IIRC, the old one, St Edmund's or 'Crofton Old Church' is 9th century and is yet another result of the church-planting of the Saxon period (c.450-1066) in the locality
Our new church is situated in Stubbington, about two miles from Titchfield. The CofE parish there contains two churches; ours, Holyrood, is the new church dating from 1872 IIRC, the old one, St Edmund's or 'Crofton Old Church' is 9th century and is yet another result of the church-planting of the Saxon period (c.450-1066) in the locality
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How come you live in such important area ? If the building of 680AD still survive there, it is amazing! Is there any writing of that time extant currently? I can imagine the region is very rich with a lot of heritage. In many locations of British culture and even in North America they had great heritages and Christian forefathers, but the today's people are ingorant of the valuable meanings of them.Matt Black said:
Very interesting location. I can imagine the Ecclesiastic Belt even down to Plymouth.
mattblack
I checked out the link to the churches on your first post, and they are beautiful! That would be awesome to worship in such an old church building. Sorry if I was harsh before. I am now attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Church with my family. I come from a fudamentalist dispensational church, so I know what it is like to make a change. My family does not understand the change. But my Wfe and daughter are excited to go to the OPC Church as we have always leaned to the reformed side, and just decided to take the plunge. I should have been more understanding before, as I know what it is like to make a change like that.
I checked out the link to the churches on your first post, and they are beautiful! That would be awesome to worship in such an old church building. Sorry if I was harsh before. I am now attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Church with my family. I come from a fudamentalist dispensational church, so I know what it is like to make a change. My family does not understand the change. But my Wfe and daughter are excited to go to the OPC Church as we have always leaned to the reformed side, and just decided to take the plunge. I should have been more understanding before, as I know what it is like to make a change like that.
CarpentersApprentice
New Member
Matt,
Have you ever read anything from John Henry Newman?
If yes, what?
And what is your estimate of his scholarship?
CA
Have you ever read anything from John Henry Newman?
If yes, what?
And what is your estimate of his scholarship?
CA
.Nate7 said:
Nate7 -- Same here. Grew up indy, fundy, preme Baptist and have been member of a PCA church for 20+ years now. The OPC is one of the more conservative Presby denominations -- much more conservative than the PCUSA & also more conservative than the PCA - which is conservative but probably broader than the OPC. Godspeed in finding the right church for you and your family -- FOS
I'm not sure the area/location is that important; it's fairly typical of much of rural (or in our case semi-rural) England. As to writing, there is some, but I don't think there's any at this particular church; there are of course the various illuminated manuscripts of that time which were written in Latin but with Anglo-Saxon 'subtitles' and Bede's (673-735) Ecclesiastical History of the English-speaking peoples, which I would thoroughly recommend to get a feel for the interaction of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon Christianity. A lot of the stories about the Celtic saints read like those of Elijah and Elisha and other Old Testament prophets.Eliyahu said:
Nate7, yes, they are beautiful buildings but it is also important that they are places of Christian worship and witness today as well as over the centuries.