Character vs Sinful Nature

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Bro. James:

The sanctification is an ongoing process, again by God, see Eph. 2:8-10,"...we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them".

Sanctification will be completed when we are given incorruptible, spiritual bodies.

Yes, but how?

 

[Bro. James]

That is where the good works come in--God will lead us to and through His plan for each of us. Some people call it being in the "center of God's Will". Jesus put it this way: "Sell everything you have, give it to the poor, and follow me." Most of us have difficulty with this--especially those who have "lots of stuff".
It all belongs to God. Now what?

Many of us are off in a man-made quadrant of a man-made circle.

That "ain't" sanctification.

How--in a word--SUBMIT.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

I try and I fail (Rom 7:14-25); note that v25 refers to us being saved in the future from the body of sin. How is that accomplished?

 

[Bro. James]

How? The same way the world was made. Our God is an awesome God. This mortal will put on the immortal--the eternal which never gets tired, crippled or infirm.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

Sorry, but you're answering the wrong 'how'; I don't mean "how is this possible?" but rather "what is the process by which this is achieved?"

 

[Bro. James]

How about: Rapture--the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those in Christ who are alive will be caught up to meet Him in the air--from cocoon to butterfly in 1/30th of a second--there is no earthly analogy to describe this event.

That is the blessed hope which keeps the real Christian going. If our only hope in Jesus is in this world, we are of all men most miserable.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

So what's the point of doing God's will - or at least trying to do it - if, no matter what horrible sins we may commit up to the moment of our deaths, we get transformed into totally sinless beings, as long as we have faith in Christ?

 

[Bro. James]

Trying to do God's will...of our own strength is not possible. Look at the life of Moses. Set aside from before his birth; eighty years getting groomed for following God's will. He got all the way to the promised land, but was not allowed to enter. He had disobeyed God's command. Does this mean Moses lost his salvation? No, he just lost a reward.

The same kind of analogy can be drawn to believers in every generation. You do not get the gold if you fail to follow the rules. This has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
'Saved from' eternal death/ punishment, our sins and the consequences of sin etc. We are therefore 'allowed in' as you put it, but the issue is whether we are ready to spend eternity in the presence of the living perfect God if there is still sin in the very fabric of our beings.

If the sinful nature is removed (because the fabric of our being includes the inherited sinful nature in these mortal bodies) and we are given NEW bodies "eternal made in the heavens with NO sinful nature" then the "internal War" that you see described in Romans 7 -- does not exist.

In 2Cor 5 we have the fact that "if anyone is in Christ he is A NEW CREATION old things are passed away all has become new".

It does not say "if anyone has been a Christian for 20 years THEN and only then are they a NEW creation".

This is a fact -- day one.

And in Romans 7 we see that Paul says "I AGREE with the Law of God but I see another principle at war with in me so that the very things I WANT to do - those things I do not do". He is speaking of the sinful nature inherited at birth due to Adam's sin.

It is there EVEN if you don't commit a sin today. You can not get rid of it until the resurrection.

--

But your view has a bigger problem. It implies that "there is a magic line" one must cross in Character development. So such line is listed in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matt Black said
To take an (as always, imperfect) analogy: suppose I have two tins of paint, one white, the other black. I get a court ruling saying that the black paint is in fact white and can be marketed and sold as such and that consumers are obliged to buy it and treat it as being white with no come back. All well and good: the black paint is now legally white. But what if I try and mix the contents of the two tins together to make double the quantity of white paint? I must first physically turn the black paint into white for that to happen.

First of all God does not do a slight of hand and call sin "good". Rather He is "Both JUST and the JUSTIFIER of those that seek him" Romans 3.

God KILLS the sinner! "You must die to self" -- Matt 10 "Take up your cross and follow Me". Paul said in 1Cor 15 "I die daily".

The NEW creation of 2Cor 5 is a new nature. Supernaturally created by God at the time of Conversion. There is nothing you can do on your own to "get one".

The OLD nature, the sinful nature is removed by God when you put on the new body at the resurrection. God has to do it - supernaturally.

Your character is "reset" at the moment of conversion - by the New Birth. You now have the choice of developing your character as you walk in the new man - as Christ walked (1John 2) or you can corrupt the Character again after having escaped -- turn back and embrace rebellion as a way of life. (Heb 6:1-9) the choice is yours.

There is no "special line" of character development needed with that "new creation" you were given at conversion. You are good to go to heaven - day one. But you must CONTINUE that surrender - continue to walk in the Spirit and as Paul says in Romans 8 "By the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

It is not HOW FAR you came along that road that determined if you can be let into heaven - but ARE YOU ON the Road still walking as Christ did (1John 2:4-8)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Bro. James]

Are we saying God is able to save but is not able to keep? So salvation is maintained by works. God did His part, now we must do ours and continue to do ours to make it to glory.

Sounds like Arminian prittle-prattle to me.

One minor problem: All of our righteousness is as filthy rags to God.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[BobRyan]

As much as I like to debate that point - that is not the point here.

Matt is not arguing that you will lose your salvation because you failed to go to purgatory. (In fact purgatory is only for the saved according to the RCC.) He is arguing that we might find something in the Bible that says that a saved person must achieve "x-level" of character sanctification before they are "good enough" to actuall go to heaven. So saved - but not allowed in heaven until they measure up. If they don't reach that undefined unstated unknown magic line in this life - then Matt suggests that maybe they are given a chance to reach it in the next life before being allowed into heaven.

No "going to hell" in this particular difference of opinion.

However - since you seem to be looking for a discussion on "MAtt 18 and Forgiveness revoked" I will see what I can do -

In Christ,

Bob