Plain Old Bill
New Member
I hear all kinds of things about charismatics but don't know exactly what it is they believe or do not believe. Any help here.
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Charismatics. What is thier doctrine anyhow?
- Thread starter Plain Old Bill
- Start date
Daniel David
New Member
Whatever way the wind blows.
Right, steve. Good observation.
And that the "gifts" that are evidenced today (jibberish nonsense instead of languages) are the same as Pentecost. That is, of course, incorrect and is the biggest hole in their theological gridwork. </font>[/QUOTE]When I first came back to Christ at age 29 I attended an Assembly of God (Pentecostal) church so I am quite familiar with speaking in tongues. I must strenuously object to your use of the word "gibberish".
"Gobbledygook" would be a better term.
When I was a much younger man, I attended a UPC, where they told me emphatically I NEEDED to get the Holy Ghost. So one day at a revival meeting I went to the altar to "get it".
They coached me in how to do it for many minutes. Finally I got it!
"tiemybowtie tiemybowtie...!
In His service;
Jim
They coached me in how to do it for many minutes. Finally I got it!
"tiemybowtie tiemybowtie...!
In His service;
Jim
My question is: charismatic what? Baptist? Anglican? New Church/house church/ restorationist?
It's a bit like asking 'what do Calvinists believe?'
Can the OP author be perhaps more specific please
Yours in Christ
Matt
It's a bit like asking 'what do Calvinists believe?'
Can the OP author be perhaps more specific please
Yours in Christ
Matt
Plain Old Bill
New Member
Yes I suppose that would be helpful.
The people connected with the Charasmatic movement whose names I am most familiar would be:
Ken Copeland
Fred Price
Marilyn Hickey
Creflos Dollar
Kenneth Hagin
What I am interested in knowing is what heresies they teach (if any)?
Where are they doctrinely sound?
where are they doctrinely unsound?
The people connected with the Charasmatic movement whose names I am most familiar would be:
Ken Copeland
Fred Price
Marilyn Hickey
Creflos Dollar
Kenneth Hagin
What I am interested in knowing is what heresies they teach (if any)?
Where are they doctrinely sound?
where are they doctrinely unsound?
They would all believe in tongues.
They would all believe in miracles (like healing of the Oral Roberts variety).
They would all believe in special revelation from God being equal or above the Written Word.
They would all be arminian/wesleyan in theology; i.e., you can lose your salvation.
They would be associated with some of the worse morality/adultery you can imagine, ala Jimmy Swaggart; Peter Popoff; Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker
They would all believe in miracles (like healing of the Oral Roberts variety).
They would all believe in special revelation from God being equal or above the Written Word.
They would all be arminian/wesleyan in theology; i.e., you can lose your salvation.
They would be associated with some of the worse morality/adultery you can imagine, ala Jimmy Swaggart; Peter Popoff; Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker
I think all of us believe in tongues. However, we don't view it as being a requirement. I certainly know for a fact that I have nto been blessed with this gift, either of speaking or interpreting.
We believe in miracles, don't we? I guess the difference is that we know that a miracle is a work of wonder. Some insist that it must be a work of magic.
Bzzz! That's where we Baptists definitely differ. Revelation, fine. But it must be scripturally supportable, and is typically not supernatural.
Bzzz! I think the majority of Baptists don't agree with the hyperarminian view. (then again, a majority of Baptists don't agree with a hypercalvinist view, either).
To Jim & Tammy's credit, they've turned over new leaves, although in separate forests. I don't know how their theology has changed, but they have acknowleged their sins, and repented, and also paid the price of repentance. Were we point out the bad acts, we must also acknowlege the good ones.
Disclaimer; i'm in the UK.
I spent something like 18 years in the Charismatic movement (depending on how I count it, there were different churches involved). Most of that time (13 years, plus three years or so before it went charismatic) was in one Anglican church. I was one of the ones who pressed and prayed hard for charismatic renewal (I was charismatic before the church was) but my experiences were such that i repented, a few years ago, of all my involvement with the charismatic movement, and I would take a bullet through the brain rather than go back there.
To be fair, that church did indeed regard any messages that were given as very much subordinate to scripture, at least, I thought so at the time. With hindsight i can remember times when scripture seemed to take a back seat and no-one bothered to say "just a minute, the scriptures say this", except me, and it wasn't accepted from me because I was usually out of favour (everything in that church seemed to depend on being in favour with the Rector, that was probably unique to that church though).
I stayed there for years longer than I wanted to because I really believed the Lord was telling me to stay. I cannot tell you what a relief it was to finally have to move 100 miles away in order to have somewhere to live, and to find a church that, whilst still mildly charismatic and overrun with modern songs, was at least filled with nice people!
I spent two years as a teenager in a charismatic house church where it turned out that the leader was sexually abusing many of the teenage girls (somehow I escaped, i don't know whether that is a compliment to my sense or an insult to my appearance!) One can be very naieve at 16 and it honestly never occurred to me to ask any questions about why he took girls into his bedroom to minsiter to them ....
The problem you are up against, trying to get out of the charismatic movement, is the concept of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. translated, this is taken to mean any objection to the way the church is going, and unless you are very sure indeed of your scriptural grounds, you just don't risk it. When I realised, after leaving, that I could not in fact lose my salvation, the joy of that discovery was like being saved all over again only more so, if that makes sense, and undoubtedly that fear that perhaps I had been blaspheming the Holy Spirit was part of that.
I am in a Baptist church now that uses Alpha and takes part in ecumenical stuff that includes charismatic meetings. I just don't go to those any more. I like my present church very much and hope it never really goes charismatic as i just couldn't face all that again. I also suspect that the Pastor and his wife are probably praying on a regular basis that I am refilled with the Holy Spirit, certainly that is what i, when a charismatic, would have been praying for ex-charismatics ...
And yes, if required, I could still turn on tongues like a tap.
Liz
I spent something like 18 years in the Charismatic movement (depending on how I count it, there were different churches involved). Most of that time (13 years, plus three years or so before it went charismatic) was in one Anglican church. I was one of the ones who pressed and prayed hard for charismatic renewal (I was charismatic before the church was) but my experiences were such that i repented, a few years ago, of all my involvement with the charismatic movement, and I would take a bullet through the brain rather than go back there.
To be fair, that church did indeed regard any messages that were given as very much subordinate to scripture, at least, I thought so at the time. With hindsight i can remember times when scripture seemed to take a back seat and no-one bothered to say "just a minute, the scriptures say this", except me, and it wasn't accepted from me because I was usually out of favour (everything in that church seemed to depend on being in favour with the Rector, that was probably unique to that church though).
I stayed there for years longer than I wanted to because I really believed the Lord was telling me to stay. I cannot tell you what a relief it was to finally have to move 100 miles away in order to have somewhere to live, and to find a church that, whilst still mildly charismatic and overrun with modern songs, was at least filled with nice people!
I spent two years as a teenager in a charismatic house church where it turned out that the leader was sexually abusing many of the teenage girls (somehow I escaped, i don't know whether that is a compliment to my sense or an insult to my appearance!) One can be very naieve at 16 and it honestly never occurred to me to ask any questions about why he took girls into his bedroom to minsiter to them ....
The problem you are up against, trying to get out of the charismatic movement, is the concept of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. translated, this is taken to mean any objection to the way the church is going, and unless you are very sure indeed of your scriptural grounds, you just don't risk it. When I realised, after leaving, that I could not in fact lose my salvation, the joy of that discovery was like being saved all over again only more so, if that makes sense, and undoubtedly that fear that perhaps I had been blaspheming the Holy Spirit was part of that.
I am in a Baptist church now that uses Alpha and takes part in ecumenical stuff that includes charismatic meetings. I just don't go to those any more. I like my present church very much and hope it never really goes charismatic as i just couldn't face all that again. I also suspect that the Pastor and his wife are probably praying on a regular basis that I am refilled with the Holy Spirit, certainly that is what i, when a charismatic, would have been praying for ex-charismatics ...
And yes, if required, I could still turn on tongues like a tap.
Liz
M
mickd7
Guest
Av1611: Be careful how you mock the things of God. I know you were trying to be cute and funny about those words you say you spoke but the truth of the matter is. The words if correcly said are in a foreign tongue and mean something. There are thousands of languages in the World and there are Angelic language also and even though it may sound foolish to you now, you indeed spoke a language but you just did not pronounce them right in your last post!!!!!!
I would not trade my tongues for anything for they have been a blessing and will continue to be for I know they came directly from God.
Some of you people should leave the subject of the Gifts alone because you have no inkling about them only what you have been taught and because you do not have a spiritual mind concerning the Gifts but carnal and you cant understand. What I mean is you lack understanding spirtually so u use your carnal mind to explain the Gifts of tongues away..
I do not mean you have a carnal mind in all spiritual matters but only on this subject.
I would not trade my tongues for anything for they have been a blessing and will continue to be for I know they came directly from God.
Some of you people should leave the subject of the Gifts alone because you have no inkling about them only what you have been taught and because you do not have a spiritual mind concerning the Gifts but carnal and you cant understand. What I mean is you lack understanding spirtually so u use your carnal mind to explain the Gifts of tongues away..
I do not mean you have a carnal mind in all spiritual matters but only on this subject.
Mick,
If you get a situation where people are pressurised into doing something they don't want to do, you are going to get bad results.
The unavoidable fact is that there is no record whatsoever of anyone anywhere in the scriptures praying to receive the gift of tongues. It sems fairly clear that on the day of Pentecost it took them all by surprise. Working each other up to it is just asking for trouble.
Liz
If you get a situation where people are pressurised into doing something they don't want to do, you are going to get bad results.
The unavoidable fact is that there is no record whatsoever of anyone anywhere in the scriptures praying to receive the gift of tongues. It sems fairly clear that on the day of Pentecost it took them all by surprise. Working each other up to it is just asking for trouble.
Liz
pastorjeff
New Member
what kind of a blessing were these tounges and to whom?
I generally take the track that if you really have that gift it will be something along the lines of you are speaking in your native language ex hebrew/some other language and you are being undersood in English/or the listener's toungue. Now that's something to write home about.
What does it profit me spiritualy if someone is speaking something I do not understand and pray my whole life and find that I still never understand them?
Also would speaking in ancient egyptian be one of the languages that gets spoken? I am not trying to poke fun, but there are many extinct languages that have not been revived for a reason.
azwyld
<*}}}><
What does it profit me spiritualy if someone is speaking something I do not understand and pray my whole life and find that I still never understand them?
Also would speaking in ancient egyptian be one of the languages that gets spoken? I am not trying to poke fun, but there are many extinct languages that have not been revived for a reason.
azwyld
<*}}}><
Timtoolman
New Member
Where does it say anyone spoke in angelic tongues? And what do you recieve that I do not because I don't speak in tongues? I am looking for the need in my life. So far no charasmatic has been able to tell me what for.
Tim
The only time the gift of tongues really is the gift of tongues is when one person is speakign it, and another is interpreting it. If someone is claiming the gift, but there is no one to interpret it, then it's not scripturally the gift of tongues.
Now, I don't know about you, mick, but God did not bless me with the gift of tongues. He instead blessed me with the spiritual gift of discernment. I would not trade my discernment for anything, for it has been a blessing and will continue to be for I know it came directly from God. Pehaps it it you who should leave the subject of the Gifts alone because, because your post demonstrates that you have no inkling what they're about, especially if you think that a person w/o tongues is not of a spiritual mind. If you lack the gift of discernment, then perhaps it is you who does not have a spiritual mind concerning the Gifts but carnal, and you cant understand. What I mean is you lack understanding spirtually concerning discernment, so you use your carnal mind to explain the Gift of discernment away...
M
mickd7
Guest
Liz: I agree with you. No one should ever seek tongues but seek the fullness of the Spirit. On the other hand if someone is taught that tongues are of the devil and the Gifts are not for today, then fear or unfaith will cause one not to receive what God has for them. Just as salvation cannot come without faith then nothing else from God can either such as a miracle, healing, etc.
M
mickd7
Guest
JohnV: I did not say you or anyone else here did not have a spiritual mind. I was referring to the discussion on tongues and the Gifts only. If you are a born again Christian then you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, but there is a difference between having the Holy Spirit dwelling in you and being filled with him.
If you claim that you have the gift of discernment , I believe you because that is a gift of the Spirit. So by admitting that you have one of the gifts you have to believe that tongues are a gift also that Christians today have.
Not everyone has the gift of tongues which is used in the church and in my experience I have never heard the gift of tongues used in a church that there was no interpretation for it. If that were not the case we would have confusion and we know that with God there is no confusion. People maybe but not God.
I also have the gift of discernment so I know what a blessing that must be for you also so we both have some charisma if u know what I mean.....
Tim : I am not a Charismatic Christian, but if u are a born again Christian then you have everything you need to live a Christian life including the indwelling Spirit.
Well, without tongues you do not have some of the power and freedom that we need in this present evil world. You do not seek tongues but if you do not believe they are for you then u wont receive it, and in my opinion you are missing a blessing.
The way I like to describe it is this way. A Baptist or non full gospel person has the cake ( salvation ) but we have the icing that goes with it and as far as explaining tongues, it is like describing a beautiful scene but unless you are there in person to see it you will never fully appreciate what I have seen or described.
We could talk all day about tongues, but until you experience the genuine article, you shall never understand how they bless.
Does that make me a better Christian than you , in no way, for the Baptist ( at least the SBC) are wonderful Christians and have the salvation doctrine down pat, but they lack some understanding when it comes to the Spirit, but praise God they are not completely closed minded and that is why they are growing with leaps and bounds and are being blessed by God.
If you claim that you have the gift of discernment , I believe you because that is a gift of the Spirit. So by admitting that you have one of the gifts you have to believe that tongues are a gift also that Christians today have.
Not everyone has the gift of tongues which is used in the church and in my experience I have never heard the gift of tongues used in a church that there was no interpretation for it. If that were not the case we would have confusion and we know that with God there is no confusion. People maybe but not God.
I also have the gift of discernment so I know what a blessing that must be for you also so we both have some charisma if u know what I mean.....
Tim : I am not a Charismatic Christian, but if u are a born again Christian then you have everything you need to live a Christian life including the indwelling Spirit.
Well, without tongues you do not have some of the power and freedom that we need in this present evil world. You do not seek tongues but if you do not believe they are for you then u wont receive it, and in my opinion you are missing a blessing.
The way I like to describe it is this way. A Baptist or non full gospel person has the cake ( salvation ) but we have the icing that goes with it and as far as explaining tongues, it is like describing a beautiful scene but unless you are there in person to see it you will never fully appreciate what I have seen or described.
We could talk all day about tongues, but until you experience the genuine article, you shall never understand how they bless.
Does that make me a better Christian than you , in no way, for the Baptist ( at least the SBC) are wonderful Christians and have the salvation doctrine down pat, but they lack some understanding when it comes to the Spirit, but praise God they are not completely closed minded and that is why they are growing with leaps and bounds and are being blessed by God.