Charismatics. What is thier doctrine anyhow?

[Timtoolman]

Tim : Well, without tongues you do not have some of the power and freedom that we need in this present evil world.


I am all ears, lay it on me! Scripures please. I do not want to miss out on anything. What Power and freedom am I missing from not speaking in tongues?

Tim

 

[mickd7]

Tim: According to Acts 1:8 we receive power , after the Spirit has come upon us and since the gifts of the Spirit are available after we receive the fullness of the Spirit we have more power through the use of the Gifts and tongues are one of them. And as far as freedom goes if a church does not believe in these precious gifts then you are not free in the Spirit to allow God to work through you with all the gifts if he chooses to. So in answer, where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom but only if you are free yourself from wrong teaching and a quenched Spirit which prevails in many churches that do not offer freedom of expression and worship when led by the Spirt of God.

 

[mickd7]

There is much freedom and power also when we pray in the Spirit ( tongues) because as the Bible says when we do not know what to pray the Spirit prays for us and this really comes into effect when we speak in tongues because if our mind is not fruitful we can pray in the Spirit and thus do not have to think and choose words but we have a direct and spiritual line that is a dircet link to Jesus from our spirit. I know you really cant understand this but those that do have this wonderul gift of tongues can readily understand how inspiring and free it makes us and also gives us more power to punch them prayers home. .

 

[mickd7]

There is much freedom and power also when we pray in the Spirit ( tongues) because as the Bible says when we do not know what to pray the Spirit prays for us and this really comes into effect when we speak in tongues because if our mind is not fruitful we can pray in the Spirit and thus do not have to think and choose words but we have a direct and spiritual line that is a dircet link to Jesus from our spirit. I know you really cant understand this but those that do have this wonderul gift of tongues can readily understand how inspiring and free it makes us and also gives us more power to punch them prayers home. .

 

[Bro Tony]

Tim : Well, without tongues you do not have some of the power and freedom that we need in this present evil world.

Mick,

While it is true that we all need the Holy Spirit to empower us and to fill us daily, there is no Scriptural support for this statement. The Bible does not even teach that all believers who are filled with the Spirit will speak in tongues. While I have stated several times that I am not a cessationist, your statement goes beyond what the Bible teaches and puts more emphasis on a particular gift than does the Scripture. You are making claims that are not biblically supported. Again, I believe we need the fullness of the Spirit in our lives, but the Bible does not teach that is proved by speaking in tongues.

Bro Tony

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Yes I suppose that would be helpful.
The people connected with the Charasmatic movement whose names I am most familiar would be:
Ken Copeland
Fred Price
Marilyn Hickey
Creflos Dollar
Kenneth Hagin
What I am interested in knowing is what heresies they teach (if any)?
Where are they doctrinely sound?
where are they doctrinely unsound?

It seems the discussion has gone off track into a discussion of tongues and the gifts of the HS. What Bill is asking about here really has nothing to do with that.

In fact, Bill, I would not call the above listed people charismatics, at least not the regular charismatics. The above people are part of the Word of Faith movement that is a heretical movement. Other names that could be included here are Charles Capps, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, and T D Jakes. The WF teachers have taught:
1. God has a body (Copeland)
2. We can speak things into existence like God
3. Our thoughts affect reality
4. We are little gods
5. Jesus did not pay for sins on the cross but had to go to hell and fight Satan for 3 days
6. Jesus actually took on a sin nature on the cross
7. Jesus did not become the Christ until he was baptized
8. God was "locked out" of his power on earth after the Fall and had to depend on man to help him bring about the plan of salvation

Here is more info:

General articles on WOF:
http://www.banner.org.uk/sum_wof.html
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/charisma.htm
http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/rprtldie.htm


These are on the Dake Bible which is used by many WOF teachers (Copeland has admitted it):
http://sites.onlinemac.com/trwmainst/dake.html
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.html

This is on Joyce Meyer, a WOF teacher:
http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm

Article on Benny Hinn with links to other sources of information online:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bhinn.html

Articles on Kenneth Copeland:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcopeland.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf22.htm

Pages with several links to problems of the WOF teachings:
http://www.banner.org.uk/sum_wof.html
http://www.letusreason.org/WFDir.htm

 

[Mark Bishop]

And Marcia beats me to another one..
of course I have been absent for a year or two..

excellent post ma'am.


mark
<><

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Thankyou very much Marcia.

 

[mickd7]

Tony: I do not put more emphasis on tongues than anything else in the Bible but we are discussing this subject and that is why I am posting here on this thread.
As for having freedom and power in the Spirit when we use the gifts you could not possible know because you have not experienced it and wont if you deny they are for you, but you are still a Christian as long as you are born again.
The same with salvation. We can explain all we want to a unsaved person how wonderful it is being born again and having Jesus in our lives but until they accept Jesus Christ into their own hearts they will not know what we are speaking of, and until anyone speaks in other tongues they also will not know what or how it affects them.
I disagree also about the notion all Christians did not receive tongues when they were saved because in Acts whenever anyone was filled with the Spirit they always spoke in tongues and on the instances they didnt it was inferred. . My question to you is this. If those in the early church spoke in other tongues when filled with the Spirit, how come you dont?
Were they any better than you! I should say not for Jesus gives freely all good things to those that love him but on the same token you have to believe and receive by faith to get those good things just as we had to do to get salvation.....

 

[Plain Old Bill]

My Dear Mickd7,
Please read carefully 1 Corinthians chapters 12 thru 14. Then continue your discussion.


Yours in Christ Jesus,
Plain old Bill

 

[Bro Tony]

Mick,

You are making statements that have no Scriptural support. If tongues were so promenent in the early church how come they are only mentioned in Acts, once in Romans, and in I Corinthians were their improper use was being corrected? None of the other church epistles even deal with them. There is no biblical teaching that states all Christians are to or ever did speak in tongues. Paul, actually asks the question, "do all speak in tongues" this rhetorical question has only one answer in context--no. Paul called tongues the least of the gifts. Scripture does not even imply that every Christian has been offered the gift of tongues.

By the way Romans 8:26 does not refer to tongues at all. It refer to the Spirit interceding for us with words that CANNOT be uttered. If it cannot be utter then it cannot be uttered in any form.

Finally, the biblical proof that one if filled and lead by the Spirit is not some gift. Paul teaches that it is the fruit of the Spirit which indicate whether we are living in and empowered by the Spirit.

Again, I am not a cessationist, but I worry when Christians like you put more emphasis on the gift than the giver.

Bro Tony

 

[James_Newman]

Most of the reading I have done on the charismatic movement seems to show that they believe you will have these gifts if you are truly saved.

Mark 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

They look to these signs as evidence of their salvation. Most of them won't try to take up serpents or drink poison, I guess they figure if they have tongues it is good enough. This in my mind is just like looking at your works as evidence of your salvation, except these guys probably have a better scripture for it.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Thankyou very much Marcia.

You're welcome, Bill!

Posted by Mark Bishop
And Marcia beats me to another one..
of course I have been absent for a year or two..
excellent post ma'am.

Thanks, Mark! Boy, it sure is nice to get some positive responses here on the BB where so much intense debate goes on. I'll take all the postive remarks I can get!

 

[BaptistXenos]

I picked up an article from the internet on the Pentecostal/Charistmatic movements.

Explains their History, doctrine, some key leaders, and a good bibliography by most conservatives that have refuted the errors. I can send to anyone wants (needs?) to find out more. I think it's great to expose error, but spending more time in teaching the sound fundamentals of the faith.

I can email it to the person who started the post. And the individual that's curious as to where some of these guys are in error. I'd pick up Christanity in Crisis from the bibliograpy list on the articles I can send you if like.

Again, this is to help refute error and proclaim the truth.

 

[Ben W]

One thing I can say about the Pentecostal Charasmatic movement is that it is certainley getting large numbers of people saved. Actually it is not unusal to see Baptist Missionaries that minister in the same movement overseas!

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by mickd7:
Tim: According to Acts 1:8 we receive power , after the Spirit has come upon us and since the gifts of the Spirit are available after we receive the fullness of the Spirit we have more power through the use of the Gifts and tongues are one of them. And as far as freedom goes if a church does not believe in these precious gifts then you are not free in the Spirit to allow God to work through you with all the gifts if he chooses to. So in answer, where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom but only if you are free yourself from wrong teaching and a quenched Spirit which prevails in many churches that do not offer freedom of expression and worship when led by the Spirt of God.

Mick do you have a verse that proves your pt. Acts 1:8 refutes your idea that you need tongues. It doesn't even mention it. It does say that the power of the HOly Spirit will be a witness to all. When a holy rollor tells me he is filled with the Holy Spirit I say great, lets go witness. Haven't had one take me up on my offer yet. Matter of fact I find at work the opposite to be true. I work with litterly hundreds of em here at GM and have come to realize they have no clue what the filling of the Holy Spirit is. As they come out of their tongues meeting and will actually cuss out the foreman in less then 5 minutes after they brag to me they have come from being filled and spoke with tongues. No, charasmatics have no clue what speaking in tongues is. There is so much error that they are blown about too and fro. Laughing movement etc. You got anything that says I am not recieving all God has because I do not speak in tongues?

Tim

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by mickd7:
There is much freedom and power also when we pray in the Spirit ( tongues) because as the Bible says when we do not know what to pray the Spirit prays for us and this really comes into effect when we speak in tongues because if our mind is not fruitful we can pray in the Spirit and thus do not have to think and choose words but we have a direct and spiritual line that is a dircet link to Jesus from our spirit. I know you really cant understand this but those that do have this wonderul gift of tongues can readily understand how inspiring and free it makes us and also gives us more power to punch them prayers home. .

Context is everything Mick. That verse has been explained over and over IN CONTEXT but I will do it again.

First of all the church of corthn. was not filled but had much sin in it.

Second Paul is rebuking them not encouraging them to speak in another language will assembled as a group. If I remember my bible history correctly the city of Corthn was a port, a hub if you will where there where many different languages spoken. Paul knew between 9 or 11 different languages as it were. There was an issue with pride, selfishness in the church. Everyone wanted to speak but if there was no one to interpt then they were to remain silent. If you read the context that starts with love does not edify or puff ones self up, and the love is too be desired. And that it is not love to sit and praise God in another language that can't be understood by al or the majority. And that a sound not distinct will not edify or prepare or help ones around that person to grow then you are not to speak in a different language. It makes it rather simple and understandable when you follow the train of thought in the context. I corths 12-13.
Now Paul says that he will pray with the understanding also...the understanding of those around him. So that HIS understanding will be fruitfull....so that he can pass that understanding, whether it be praise or revelation, to those around him. So that THEY may be edified!

MIck, I was looking for verses that back up what you said about missing out on the power, or whatever. There are so many times that people never spoke in tongues. And the few times mention in acts there were two different nationalities present at all times. These may not have been miraclus happenings as those that were there wittnising to others in their native langauge.

Wanted to type more but am on a tight schedule till thanksgiving so I am replying quickly. Will stop in later and see your response.

I have studied this matter quit extensively because I work with so many charasmatics. I have even attended a church that spoke in tongues for awhile when i was younger because a good friend of mine witnessed to me one day that he had "recieve the power". Cept he also could speak in tongues on sunday and go to the bar and cuss like a truck driver.

Tim

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Thankyou XenosBaptist I will look forward to hearing from you. E-mail: billlarrabee@hotmail.com

 

[GeneMBridges]

There is a test for the interpretation of tongues that anybody can always use. God will never, ever fail to recognize His own Word.

Go to the person that is interpreting and quote an obscure passage from the Old Testament in Hebrew or, better yet, the portion of Scripture dealing with tongues from 1 Corinthians in koine Greek, if that person has no interpretation, then I say you have been exposed, but your exposure is honorable, because you have truly "tested the spirits" by using God's Word in a practical manner. If that person has the wrong interpretation, s/he has been exposed as a false teacher, for they should either have no interpretation for it or certainly get it correct.

Yes, I do know of instances where this has been done and false teachers have been exposed as such, because they have offered the wrong interpretation when the person speaking in tongues was, in fact, quoting a portion of Genesis 1.

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Yes I suppose that would be helpful.
The people connected with the Charasmatic movement whose names I am most familiar would be:
Ken Copeland
Fred Price
Marilyn Hickey
Creflos Dollar
Kenneth Hagin
What I am interested in knowing is what heresies they teach (if any)?
Where are they doctrinely sound?
where are they doctrinely unsound?

It seems the discussion has gone off track into a discussion of tongues and the gifts of the HS. What Bill is asking about here really has nothing to do with that.

In fact, Bill, I would not call the above listed people charismatics, at least not the regular charismatics. The above people are part of the Word of Faith movement that is a heretical movement. Other names that could be included here are Charles Capps, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, and T D Jakes. The WF teachers have taught:
1. God has a body (Copeland)
2. We can speak things into existence like God
3. Our thoughts affect reality
4. We are little gods
5. Jesus did not pay for sins on the cross but had to go to hell and fight Satan for 3 days
6. Jesus actually took on a sin nature on the cross
7. Jesus did not become the Christ until he was baptized
8. God was "locked out" of his power on earth after the Fall and had to depend on man to help him bring about the plan of salvation

Here is more info:

General articles on WOF:
http://www.banner.org.uk/sum_wof.html
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/charisma.htm
http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm
http://www.watchman.org/reltop/rprtldie.htm


These are on the Dake Bible which is used by many WOF teachers (Copeland has admitted it):
http://sites.onlinemac.com/trwmainst/dake.html
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.html

This is on Joyce Meyer, a WOF teacher:
http://www.pfo.org/preacher.htm

Article on Benny Hinn with links to other sources of information online:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bhinn.html

Articles on Kenneth Copeland:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcopeland.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Wf22.htm

Pages with several links to problems of the WOF teachings:
http://www.banner.org.uk/sum_wof.html
http://www.letusreason.org/WFDir.htm </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia,

There is another type of charismatic group we should be concerned with as well. (I believe T.D. Jakes is one of them too)...Oneness Pentecostals.

Their beliefs are rather odd, but they all deny the Trinity, which puts them on the level with JW's and Mormons in my eyes.

Here is a link to some articles on them:

http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

I think it is important we know about these, because they are attaining more and more legitimacy in traditional Christian circles, thanks to Jakes and others. It personally pains me to see so many clear doctrines denied...