Charles Stanley and Calvinism

[Charlie24]

So do you lose the Holy Spirit also?
If that is the case? Why would Paul say that their bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost since they were obviously not living in such a way that they should be able to keep their salvation according to your teachings?

Remember when Ezekiel witnessed the glory of the Lord (the Holy Spirit) departing from the temple, and lingering over it, not wanting to leave?

He had no choice but to leave, they no longer believed for whatever reason. And there are many reasons saving Grace can depart with saving faith being replaced by something else.

 

[Ben1445]

Remember when Ezekiel witnessed the glory of the Lord (the Holy Spirit) departing from the temple, and lingering over it, not wanting to leave?

He had no choice but to leave, they no longer believed for whatever reason. And there are many reasons saving Grace can depart with saving faith being replaced by something else.

That was the temple of the faulty first covenant. The physical building. It is not the same thing.

 

[Charlie24]

That was the temple of the faulty first covenant. The physical building. It is not the same thing.

It's the departure of the Holy Spirit from the OT temple, and what is the temple in the NT?

1 Cor. 6:19

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

 

[Ben1445]

But he said the Holy Spirit IS in them. So the Holy Spirit hadn’t left them in spite of their behavior.

 

[Charlie24]

But he said the Holy Spirit IS in them. So the Holy Spirit hadn’t left them in spite of their behavior.

Isaiah 18:21-28

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

[Charlie24]

Isaiah 18:21-28

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

The OT saints were saved the same way as us, faith in the Blood of the Lamb.

This is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that a righteous man can lose that righteousness.

 

[Ben1445]

Isaiah 18:21-28

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

You are still answering out of the covenant that had to be replaced because it was faulty. Hebrews 8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
But we are not under the law. We are in Christ. Old things are passed away. All things are become new.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It isn’t a matter of keeping ourselves. Jesus died for the sin that you haven’t committed yet. Unless you’re a few years over a couple thousand, Jesus died for all your sin before it was committed. At what point during your life does some sin not count as being paid for.
This is by no means license to sin. Paul says that we are dead to sin.
Romans 6 Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
But still, I quote, “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:”

 

[Charlie24]

You are still answering out of the covenant that had to be replaced because it was faulty. Hebrews 8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
But we are not under the law. We are in Christ. Old things are passed away. All things are become new.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

It isn’t a matter of keeping ourselves. Jesus died for the sin that you haven’t committed yet. Unless you’re a few years over a couple thousand, Jesus died for all your sin before it was committed. At what point during your life does some sin not count as being paid for.
This is by no means license to sin. Paul says that we are dead to sin.
Romans 6 Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
But still, I quote, “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:”

Maybe you don't understand that salvation has been the same from the creation of Adam and Eve.

And maybe you don't understand that "when the righteous man turns from his righteousness" means he has turned from his faith that saved him.

And maybe you just don't care!

 

[Ben1445]

You seem to be intent on making sure that we know we can lose salvation. If you can lose salvation, you were never saved. This is why I am not Armenian. It just isn’t Scriptural. The reality of the two views is that we do have a free will. We have a choice. You’ll have to explain those last passages away before I could ever accept your statement.
The just live by faith in the OT and NT. Maybe you don’t understand the Scripture I have given you. Maybe you don’t want to. Maybe you have too much pride in how you are working your way to heaven. Maybe you don’t care about what the Bible says.
So I just threw back at you the ad hominem that you gave me.
Now would you care to explain why the Bible says that a believer cannot sin?

 

[Charlie24]

You seem to be intent on making sure that we know we can lose salvation. If you can lose salvation, you were never saved. This is why I am not Armenian. It just isn’t Scriptural. The reality of the two views is that we do have a free will. We have a choice. You’ll have to explain those last passages away before I could ever accept your statement.
The just live by faith in the OT and NT. Maybe you don’t understand the Scripture I have given you. Maybe you don’t want to. Maybe you have too much pride in how you are working your way to heaven. Maybe you don’t care about what the Bible says.
So I just threw back at you the ad hominem that you gave me.
Now would you care to explain why the Bible says that a believer cannot sin?

Ok, you do and believe as you were taught. I'll do as Paul said and "examine myself whether I am in the faith. 2 Cor. 13:5

 

[Ben1445]

That is good to do. At what point do you know as John wrote that you should?
No consideration on 1 John? No answer to Scripture?
Considering Paul was writing to a church that was in serious moral sin, I would tell them to examine themselves also.
But I don’t need to stand in doubt every hour.
Praise the Lord!! The Just Shall Live By Faith!

 

[Charlie24]

That is good to do. At what point do you know as John wrote that you should?
No consideration on 1 John? No answer to Scripture?
Considering Paul was writing to a church that was in serious moral sin, I would tell them to examine themselves also.
But I don’t need to stand in doubt every hour.
Praise the Lord!! The Just Shall Live By Faith!

Amen! "The just shall live by faith."

Heb. 3:12

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

[Ben1445]

1 John 3:9??
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And so this means what??

 

[Charlie24]

1 John 3:9??
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

And so this means what??

All of us believers still sin, all of us. The context shows us that John is saying,

"Whosoever is born of God doth not practice sin...."

 

[Charlie24]

All of us believers still sin, all of us. The context shows us that John is saying,

"Whosoever is born of God doth not practice sin...."

After you are saved you feel guilty of sinning, and you begin to make it a practice of not repeating the same sins over and over again, practicing sin. And we still do at times, and should be guilt over that, if not, it's check up time. "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith!"

 

[Ben1445]

But the reason is the best part. It is because we are born of God. We have eternal life!
It is not eternal with an on and off switch.
It is really eternal. I actually believe that when Jesus promised eternal life, it meant forever and not on and off for a bit until you “persevere.” It is the work of Christ and he will finish it. I look forward to putting off this body of corruption. But it is Christ who paid for my sin. If it were possible that I maintain it, Christ wouldn’t have needed to die. But it is not possible and that is why It is entirely the work of Jesus Christ that I put my faith in. And since the seed of Christ remains, no sin that this corrupt flesh commits can separate me from the love of Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

But the reason is the best part. It is because we are born of God. We have eternal life!
It is not eternal with an on and off switch.
It is really eternal. I actually believe that when Jesus promised eternal life, it meant forever and not on and off for a bit until you “persevere.” It is the work of Christ and he will finish it. I look forward to putting off this body of corruption. But it is Christ who paid for my sin. If it were possible that I maintain it, Christ wouldn’t have needed to die. But it is not possible and that is why It is entirely the work of Jesus Christ that I put my faith in. And since the seed of Christ remains, no sin that this corrupt flesh commits can separate me from the love of Christ.

No, that's where Calvinism steps in! You do know that "once saved always saved" came from the P in TULIP?

They believe that through their election, they will persevere to the end and can't lose their salvation.

That is clearly not what the Scripture teaches!

Are you a Calvinist or Sovereign Grace?

 

[Ben1445]

I believe when John said that a believer cannot sin, it is because it is not counted to him. John says if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves. How can he say both? It is because Jesus carried all of my sin. I don’t have any of it.
I think your interpretation of Rev. 3:11 is flawed. How can someone take your salvation? What happened to no man is able to pluck them out of my hand?
If you paid attention to my first comment here, I said that I am not.
But you must be one of those people who can’t have a discussion without putting everyone in boxes where they don’t put themselves.

 

[Ben1445]

What are you doing if not persevering by your behavior?
Where is faith?
Your focus is in the wrong place. I serve my Saviour because I love him. But that doesn’t keep me saved. What is begun in faith and paid for by the Blood of Jesus can never be held onto by good behavior.

 

[Charlie24]

I believe when John said that a believer cannot sin, it is because it is not counted to him. John says if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves. How can he say both? It is because Jesus carried all of my sin. I don’t have any of it.
I think your interpretation of Rev. 3:11 is flawed. How can someone take your salvation? What happened to no man is able to pluck them out of my hand?
If you paid attention to my first comment here, I said that I am not.
But you must be one of those people who can’t have a discussion without putting everyone in boxes where they don’t put themselves.

Maybe I am one of those people.

But John saying "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves" is referring to the sin nature.

You missed all of my threads on that.

No man can pluck you out of His hand, you pluck yourself out of His hand by placing your faith in something other than Christ for your salvation.

There are multiple ways of doing that and not even realizing it.