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Charles Wesley's "Oh Horrible Decree"

jonathan.borland

Active Member
What do you all think about this one? I think it gets at the root of the Calvinits' "determinism problem" quite well, don't you? All dialogue welcome!



Oh Horrible Decree
by Charles Wesley


Ah! Gentle, gracious Dove,
And art thou grieved in me,
That sinners should restrain thy love,
And say, “It is not free:
It is not free for all:
The most, thou passest by,
And mockest with a fruitless call
Whom thou hast doomed to die.”

They think thee not sincere
In giving each his day,
“ Thou only draw’st the sinner near
To cast him quite away,
To aggravate his sin,
His sure damnation seal:
Thou show’st him heaven, and say’st, go in
And thrusts him into hell.”

O HORRIBLE DECREE
Worthy of whence it came!
Forgive their hellish blasphemy
Who charge it on the Lamb:
Whose pity him inclined
To leave his throne above,
The friend, and Saviour of mankind,
The God of grace, and love.

O gracious, loving Lord,
I feel thy bowels yearn;
For those who slight the gospel word
I share in thy concern:
How art thou grieved to be
By ransomed worms withstood!
How dost thou bleed afresh to see
Them trample on thy blood!

To limit thee they dare,
Blaspheme thee to thy face,
Deny their fellow-worms a share
In thy redeeming grace:
All for their own they take,
Thy righteousness engross,
Of none effect to most they make
The merits of thy cross.

Sinners, abhor the fiend:
His other gospel hear—
“The God of truth did not intend
The thing his words declare,
He offers grace to all,
Which most cannot embrace,
Mocked with an ineffectual call
And insufficient grace.

“The righteous God consigned
Them over to their doom,
And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb;
To damn for falling short,
“Of what they could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true.

“The God of love passed by
The most of those that fell,
Ordained poor reprobates to die,
And forced them into hell.”
“He did not do the deed”
(Some have more mildly raved)
“He did not damn them—but decreed
They never should be saved.

“He did not them bereave
Of life, or stop their breath,
His grace he only would not give,
And starved their souls to death.”
Satanic sophistry!
But still, all-gracious God,
They charge the sinner’s death on thee,
Who bought’st him with thy blood.

They think with shrieks and cries
To please the Lord of hosts,
And offer thee, in sacrifice
Millions of slaughtered ghosts:
With newborn babes they fill
The dire infernal shade,
“For such,” they say, “was thy great will,
Before the world was made.”

How long, O God, how long
Shall Satan’s rage proceed!
Wilt thou not soon avenge the wrong,
And crush the serpent’s head?
Surely thou shalt at last
Bruise him beneath our feet:
The devil and his doctrine cast
Into the burning pit.

Arise, O God, arise,
Thy glorious truth maintain,
Hold forth the bloody sacrifice,
For every sinner slain!
Defend thy mercy’s cause,
Thy grace divinely free,
Lift up the standard of thy cross,
Draw all men unto thee.

O vindicate thy grace,
Which every soul may prove,
Us in thy arms of love embrace,
Of everlasting love.
Give the pure gospel word,
Thy preachers multiply,
Let all confess their common Lord,
And dare for him to die.

My life I here present,
My heart’s last drop of blood,
O let it all be freely spent
In proof that thou art good,
Art good to all that breathe,
Who all may pardon have:
Thou willest not the sinner’s death,
But all the world wouldst save.

O take me at my word,
But arm me with thy power,
Then call me forth to suffer, Lord,
To meet the fiery hour:
In death will I proclaim
That all may hear thy call,
And clap my hands amidst the flame,
And shout,—HE DIED FOR ALL
 

12strings

Active Member
Amazing that for all their arguing against Calvinism, John Wesley could still write this:

John Calvin was a pious, learned, sensible man; and so was James Harmens. Many Calvinists are pious, learned, sensible men; and so are many Arminians. Only the former hold absolute predestination; the latter, conditional.

One word more: Is it not the duty of every Arminian Preacher, First, never, in public or in private, to use the word Calvinist as a term of reproach; seeing it is neither better nor worse than calling names? -- a practice no more consistent with good sense or good manners, than it is with Christianity. Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly of it? And is it not equally the duty of every Calvinist Preacher, First, never in public or in private, in preaching or in conversation, to use the word Arminian as a term of reproach? Secondly. To do all that in him lies to prevent his hearers from doing it, by showing them the sin and folly thereof; and that the more earnestly and diligently, if they have been accustomed so to do? perhaps encouraged therein by his own example!

-The Question, "What Is an Arminian?" Answered by a Lover of Free Grace
by John Wesley


This sets a good example for us on this board of how to treat others, IMOHO.
 

jonathan.borland

Active Member
Good post, 12strings! Thank you!

Earthwindfire, please don't detract with your silly non sequiturs, like, uh I dunno, the present day Ephesian and Philippi churches are what... Therefore Paul was full of it. Don't make me laugh.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Good post, 12strings! Thank you!

Earthwindfire, please don't detract with your silly non sequiturs, like, uh I dunno, the present day Ephesian and Philippi churches are what... Therefore Paul was full of it. Don't make me laugh.

Just more incoherent rambling from you again.....:tongue3:
 

jonathan.borland

Active Member
Just more incoherent rambling from you again.....:tongue3:

Ok, brother, sometimes I wake up in the morning with my phone in hand and I discover two or three posts I don't remember writing. Anyway, I take it you don't care much for Wesley's little poem?
 

mont974x4

New Member
What do you all think about this one? I think it gets at the root of the Calvinits' "determinism problem" quite well, don't you? All dialogue welcome!



Oh Horrible Decree
by Charles Wesley


Ah! Gentle, gracious Dove,
And art thou grieved in me,
That sinners should restrain thy love, 1. He calls Calvinists sinners. 2. We do not restrain His love

And say, “It is not free: We do indeed say it is free
It is not free for all: True. It is free for the elect
The most, thou passest by,
And mockest with a fruitless call We mock noone
Whom thou hast doomed to die.” We are form believers in evangelism

They think thee not sincereAnother false claim
In giving each his day,
“ Thou only draw’st the sinner near
To cast him quite away,
To aggravate his sin,
His sure damnation seal:
Thou show’st him heaven, and say’st, go in
And thrusts him into hell.” We never make God out to be so cruel

O HORRIBLE DECREE
Worthy of whence it came!
Forgive their hellish blasphemy It is horrible and blasphemy, it also not what we teach/preach

Who charge it on the Lamb:
Whose pity him inclined
To leave his throne above,
The friend, and Saviour of mankind,
The God of grace, and love.

O gracious, loving Lord,
I feel thy bowels yearn;
For those who slight the gospel word
I share in thy concern:
How art thou grieved to be
By ransomed worms withstood!
How dost thou bleed afresh to see Those who teach you can lose your salvation are the ones who re-sacrifice Him and make a mockery of the cross
Them trample on thy blood!

To limit thee they dare,
Blaspheme thee to thy face,
Deny their fellow-worms a share We deny no man anything. We rest in, and preach, God's sovereign grace

In thy redeeming grace:
All for their own they take,
Thy righteousness engross,
Of none effect to most they make
The merits of thy cross. Narrow is the way, and few will find it. Most are indeed damned.

Sinners, abhor the fiend:
His other gospel hear—
“The God of truth did not intend
The thing his words declare,
He offers grace to all,
Which most cannot embrace,
Mocked with an ineffectual call
And insufficient grace. Just more mis-characterization of what we teach/preach

“The righteous God consigned
Them over to their doom, Yes, He did. According to Eph 1 and Romans 9

And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb; Mankind is born sinful. We sin because we are sinners

To damn for falling short,
“Of what they could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true. Romans 1 says they are without excuse and receive their just due from a righteous God whose wrath is just

“The God of love passed by
The most of those that fell,
Ordained poor reprobates to die,
And forced them into hell.”
“He did not do the deed”
(Some have more mildly raved)
“He did not damn them—but decreed
They never should be saved.

“He did not them bereave
Of life, or stop their breath,
His grace he only would not give,
And starved their souls to death.”
Satanic sophistry!
But still, all-gracious God,
They charge the sinner’s death on thee,
Who bought’st him with thy blood. damnation is the righteous end of sinners

They think with shrieks and cries
To please the Lord of hosts,
And offer thee, in sacrifice
Millions of slaughtered ghosts:
With newborn babes they fill
The dire infernal shade,
“For such,” they say, “was thy great will,
Before the world was made.” wow, just.....wow :BangHead:

How long, O God, how long
Shall Satan’s rage proceed!
Wilt thou not soon avenge the wrong,
And crush the serpent’s head?
Surely thou shalt at last
Bruise him beneath our feet:
The devil and his doctrine cast
Into the burning pit. The devil doctrine is Arminianism and its denial of God's sovereignty making it second to the will of sinful men

Arise, O God, arise,
Thy glorious truth maintain,
Hold forth the bloody sacrifice,
For every sinner slain!
Defend thy mercy’s cause,
Thy grace divinely free,
Lift up the standard of thy cross,
Draw all men unto thee. He maintains His truth now. He draws the elect, for only those drawn will come. No man seeks Him on his own accord.

O vindicate thy grace,
Which every soul may prove,
Us in thy arms of love embrace,
Of everlasting love.
Give the pure gospel word,
Thy preachers multiply,
Let all confess their common Lord,
And dare for him to die.

My life I here present,
My heart’s last drop of blood,
O let it all be freely spent
In proof that thou art good,
Art good to all that breathe,
Who all may pardon have:
Thou willest not the sinner’s death,
But all the world wouldst save.

O take me at my word,
But arm me with thy power,
Then call me forth to suffer, Lord,
To meet the fiery hour:
In death will I proclaim
That all may hear thy call,
And clap my hands amidst the flame,
And shout,—HE DIED FOR ALL


This poem is little more than the ranting of man ignorant (willful or not I do not know) of what Calvinism teaches and unwilling to deal fairly with those who teach the Doctrines of Grace that are found in Scripture.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
What do you all think about this one? I think it gets at the root of the Calvinits' "determinism problem" quite well, don't you? All dialogue welcome!

Far better to follow the Words of Jesus Christ than make His Sacrifice of no affect by heeding the false teaching of Wesley!
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This poem is little more than the ranting of man ignorant (willful or not I do not know) of what Calvinism teaches and unwilling to deal fairly with those who teach the Doctrines of Grace that are found in Scripture.

You may dislike Wesley's poem......but, he was neither ignorant of Calvinism's claims, nor did he mis-represent them willfully.....Much Calvinist apologetic has also evolved over time. So don't be so swift to judge his views 250 or so after his writing, from a post-modern perspective. That would be to be equally as disingenuous as you are accussing him of being... Pay attention to the Calvinist Theology extant in HIS era prior to passage of swift judgement.
 
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HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lol Most Arminians I know are not drinkers. It is part of the fear of losing their salvation.

Whether or not one can, in fact, lose their salvation is not a confessionally decided belief amongst Arminians........Jacobus Arminius himself was non-committal on the topic. Most "Wesleyans" however, do think it possible. It is usually best to distinguish between "Classical" and "Wesleyan" Arminians....
 

mont974x4

New Member
You may dislike Wesley's poem......but, he was neither ignorant of Calvinisms, nor did he mis-represent them willfully.....Much Calvinist apologetic has also evolved over time also. So don't be so swift to judge his views 250 yrs. ish after his writing from a post-modern perspective. That would be to be equally as disingenuous as you are accussing him of being... Pay attention to the Calvinist Theology extant in HIS era prior to passage of swift judgement.

My pastoral degree is from a Nazarene school. I am well aware of their errors of the Wesley's and their attitude towards Calvin and the DoG. I stand by my earlier post.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My pastoral degree is from a Nazarene school. I am well aware of their errors of the Wesley's and their attitude towards Calvin and the DoG. I stand by my earlier post.

Apparently........you are absolutely NOT aware of them, and that, by your own admission as I cite here:

(willful or not I do not know)

Whatever Nazarene School you cited your degree in to sound superior....owes you your tuition-money back.

My question is:
1.) Do you know?
or.........
2.) Do you NOT know?

Or..........did the affore-mentioned Nazarene degree not equip you to be consistent with such questions?
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This poem is little more than the ranting of man ignorant (willful or not I do not know) of what Calvinism teaches and unwilling to deal fairly with those who teach the Doctrines of Grace that are found in Scripture.

Brother....the Wesley family was more than familiar with George Whitefield as they were all Methodists together only George gravitated to Calvinism & the Wesley family were all convinced Arminians.
 
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