Charles Wesley's "Oh Horrible Decree"

[HeirofSalvation]

Mont:

NOTHING about either John nor Charles Wesley was "MALICIOUS"........Never....

Granted, they were not Calvinists, and this poem is hard-hitting about what Charles obviously views to be the logical ends of Calvinist teaching, but, they are aware of Calvinist dogma, and they are NEVER malicious towards any fellow Christian who is a "Calvinist". The Wesleys held Whitefield in HIGH regard, and the feeling was reciprocated........

I can understand a committed Calvinist's tendency to balk at such a poem......but, it would not be right to think that Charles is to be indicted for writing it. He wasn't ignorant, nor was he ever malicious.

 

[mont974x4]

Obviously I disagree.
I hope you understand my point about noting the school I attended was purely to assure you that my statements are based on an informed basis and not on random misquotes on a messageboard.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Obviously I disagree.
I hope you understand my point about noting the school I attended was purely to assure you that my statements are based on an informed basis and not on random misquotes on a messageboard.

Very Well!! :flower::wavey: Blessings to you:thumbsup:

 

[jonathan.borland]

I think the bristling over Wesley's poem is because it actually very accurately describes the Calvinist position. To Wesley, it represents a cold, damnable doctrine void of the love and grace of God and one that actually detracts from the spread of the gospel. He talks about people rejecting a gospel that wasn't even true (the Calvinist gospel) and going to hell for it. What a damnable picture of the effects of Calvinist doctrine he paints!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think the bristling over Wesley's poem is because it actually very accurately describes the Calvinist position. To Wesley, it represents a cold, damnable doctrine void of the love and grace of God and one that actually detracts from the spread of the gospel. He talks about people rejecting a gospel that wasn't even true (the Calvinist gospel) and going to hell for it. What a damnable picture of the effects of Calvinist doctrine he paints!

But yet there are more committed doctrinal Calvinist today who are both orthodox & evangelical coming out of seminaries & bringing people to the Christian faith while Wesleys Methodism has basically become largely a liberal & apostate abomination. Ask yourself which Christian doctrinal theology is bearing fruit & which is appointing women as pastors (amongst other non-scriptural proclivities)

 

[mont974x4]

I think the bristling over Wesley's poem is because it actually very accurately describes the Calvinist position. To Wesley, it represents a cold, damnable doctrine void of the love and grace of God and one that actually detracts from the spread of the gospel. He talks about people rejecting a gospel that wasn't even true (the Calvinist gospel) and going to hell for it. What a damnable picture of the effects of Calvinist doctrine he paints!

I am truly glad you enjoyed the poem. I did not because, just as with your post, it lacked truth and was only meant to offend Calvinists.

 

[jonathan.borland]

That sounds like a drinking problem to me! :smilewinkgrin:

LOL! I don't really do that, but I knew this guy once who was addicted to playing chess online using his phone. He would literally go to bed with the thing in his hand and wait for it to notify him that his opponent had made his move so he could make his. He would lie in bed thinking about his next several moves and possible moves of his opponent. His wife said, "Comon'! You can't make love to that thing! Spend some time with me or go to sleep!"

 

[jonathan.borland]

I am truly glad you enjoyed the poem. I did not because, just as with your post, it lacked truth and was only meant to offend Calvinists.

Where did I say I enjoyed the poem? But more importantly, why are you "truly glad?" I said I think it gets at the heart of the eventual fatalism that is inherent in the Calvinist system. Just because he describes the system with poetic force doesn't detract from its conclusions. Do you agree or not that the call to sinners to repent is completely fruitless for those supposedly not decreed to be elect? If so, why the fuss about the poem?

The righteous God consigned
Them over to their doom,
And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb;
To damn for falling short,
“Of what they could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true.

I actually do want to know how this differs from the system known as Calvinism?

 

[mont974x4]

It is absurd to claim Calvinism is a doctrine without grace when the whole of it rests on grace, preaches grace, and exalts God's grace.


As to the portion of the the poem you picked out that shows you and Wesley falsely believe Calvinism blames God for people being damned....read Romans 1.

 

[jonathan.borland]

I know full well what Rom. 1 says, and I see nothing about God decreeing man's fall, but perhaps I misunderstand you. Did God decree man's fall or not? Straight answer please.

Also, Rom. 1:16 is very clear to that the gospel saves EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES, whom we understand as the elect. So you believe God decrees before creating anyone who may be saved and who may not? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the system known as Calvinism. If you would clarify a few things then I can know if Wesley was misrepresenting Calvinism or simply being honest by taking the sugar coating off the system.

 

[humblethinker]

"They think thee not sincere"

I like this line. If anything, it is the case that God is sincere, no?

 

[OldRegular]

It is absurd to claim Calvinism is a doctrine without grace when the whole of it rests on grace, preaches grace, and exalts God's grace.


As to the portion of the the poem you picked out that shows you and Wesley falsely believe Calvinism blames God for people being damned....read Romans 1.

Calvinism, when used as a nickname for the Doctrines of Grace, magnifies the Grace of God! Arminianism, semi-Pelagianism, and Pelagianism diminish the Grace of God, questions the efficacy of the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ, and makes sinful man the author of their Salvation.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Doesn't Calvinism say that God elected unconditionally (which in itself is problematic since the most clear biblical condition for salvation is belief) those who would be saved and by extension those who would not, and also that this occurred before any soul was born or even sinned? Thus according to Calvinism the damnation of those who go to hell was sealed before they ever sinned, and this seems to me contradictory to the whole thrust of the Bible, especially "Romans 1"! Now of course God for foreknows everything and is also outside of time, so to God electing someone at the end of time is no different than electing him before the beginning of time. God says every action will be judged, but of course to God, who is outside of time and inside it at the same time, he's already seen and judged each and every man, knowing full well all who would respond in faith to his loving and convicting Spirit and who would not. The fact that God elected believers "before time began" is irrelevant, since to God there is really no other way to describe it, since we all exist and operate in this thing called time, and he is not bound by it. I really don't see any responses here that seriously challenge the accuracy of Wesley's non-sugar coated depiction of Calvinism.

 

[mont974x4]

Calvinism teaches precisely what the Bible says about predestination, election, God choosing, and so forth. We can do that without our finite mind fully grasping how our infinite God planned it all and accomplished it all.

The idea that God elects someone at the end of time is counter to Scripture which says God's election occurred before the foundation of the world. The usual fallback position is what you brought here, a game of mental gymnastics over foreknowledge and time while totally ignoring election, predestination, and God's calling of men.

Rom 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (NASB)

This is a great synopsis of the salvation process. Notice that nowhere does it say "...God causes all things to work together for good for those who chose God..." It is all about God and His grace, and His perfect will.

Paul was not saved until he was on the road to Damascus, however, God chose him before the foundation of the world to be and He appointed the time when Paul would be made to have eyes to see and ears to hear. Belief itself is a gift from God.


Also,a reading of Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 would be helpful here.


Wesleyan and Arminian theology makes men to be gods and God to be a man.

 

[TCassidy]

What do I think of Wesley's hymn? Not much. He was not saved until 1738 and that hymn reflects not his, but his brother's false doctrine.

In fact, later in life, Charles Wesley rejected Methodism and confirmed his position in the Church of England. Just before his death, he sent for the rector of St. Marylebone Parish Church, John Harley, and told him "Sir, whatever the world may say of me, I have lived, and I die, a member of the Church of England."

 

[TCassidy]

I really don't see any responses here that seriously challenge the accuracy of Wesley's non-sugar coated depiction of Calvinism.

You mean other than its not true as mont974x4 so aptly pointed out?

 

[Winman]

Doesn't Calvinism say that God elected unconditionally (which in itself is problematic since the most clear biblical condition for salvation is belief) those who would be saved and by extension those who would not, and also that this occurred before any soul was born or even sinned? Thus according to Calvinism the damnation of those who go to hell was sealed before they ever sinned, and this seems to me contradictory to the whole thrust of the Bible, especially "Romans 1"! Now of course God for foreknows everything and is also outside of time, so to God electing someone at the end of time is no different than electing him before the beginning of time. God says every action will be judged, but of course to God, who is outside of time and inside it at the same time, he's already seen and judged each and every man, knowing full well all who would respond in faith to his loving and convicting Spirit and who would not. The fact that God elected believers "before time began" is irrelevant, since to God there is really no other way to describe it, since we all exist and operate in this thing called time, and he is not bound by it. I really don't see any responses here that seriously challenge the accuracy of Wesley's non-sugar coated depiction of Calvinism.

I agree with you Jonathan, God chose those whom he foresaw in his foreknowledge would believe. We have several examples of this shown in scripture.

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Jesus "saw" Nathanael "coming to him", and called Nathanael an "Israelite indeed". This is the true Jew described in Romans 2:28-29.

Nathanael was shocked that Jesus KNEW him, Jesus responded that even before he was called, Jesus saw him. This is a perfect example of foreknowledge, Jesus knew before that Nathanael would believe on him when called.

Another example shown is the prodigal son.

Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

The prodigal son came to himself. He confessed he was a sinner unworthy to be called his father's son. He started for home, hoping upon his good father's mercy.

But before he could come home, his good father was already watching, and saw him coming from afar. This is foreknowledge, this is God seeing who will believe on him before it actually takes place.

It is plain as day for those who can see.

 

[mont974x4]

Knowing that we have argued over this is many threads here, and we have all likely have argued it in many other places as well, I have no expectation that anything will be said in this thread to sway those who have solidly landed on either side of this issue.

The poem was posted. A request was made inviting any thoughts on it. I shared mine. That is all. I understand and respect the fact that there will be disagreement.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Knowing that we have argued over this is many threads here, and we have all likely have argued it in many other places as well, I have no expectation that anything will be said in this thread to sway those who have solidly landed on either side of this issue.

The poem was posted. A request was made inviting any thoughts on it. I shared mine. That is all. I understand and respect the fact that there will be disagreement.

Jason..... chalk it up to still one more numb-skull trying to agitate (poke the bear). God forbid the bear retaliates.

Anyway, have a good evening.

 

[mont974x4]

Anyway, have a good evening.

And you as well. I will let you know that last earlier this week I enjoyed a god and cold Sam Adams Oktoberfest. It brought to mind a few fests I enjoyed in Germany several years ago. I recommend it.