Cheap Grace

No. It appears that is what you were saying calvinists believe. A calvinist does not believe that changing one's life causes him to be born again. A calvinist (most of em anyway) believe that one is born again of the Holy Spirit and that changes them. They are given a new nature (changed) by God. That is the new birth.

 

but isn't that a shared belief with the "free will" crowd? This is what I beleive, too, yet I don't call myself a calvinist.

 

Most of the free will crowd would say that they are drawn by the Spirit, but untimately it is their decision which causes them to be born again. That is the point of contention between most calvinist and non cal.

Most cal believe that one is at enmity with God all the way up to the point of regeneration. When the Holy Spirit changes (gives new heart) or regenerates, then one chooses to believe. They will all believe. All that the Father gives me........

The cal would say that men are not born by a decision or by the will of man, but of God.

Is that what you believe bapmom?

 

I and those who do not hold to irresistable grace believe that the Holy Ghost in His soveriegnty has the power and authority to reach into a mans heart and convict him even before regeneration. We do not put a limit on the power of God as those who follow the teachings of calvin.



So here is a good question. Can God convict a man of his sin prior to regeneration? If not why is God so limited? Is God limited by the depravity of man? Does God have the power, soveriegnty, authority, ability, capability to reach into a mans heart and convict him prior to regeneration?

 

I believe it is not myself which does the work, but God. As I understand it, this would be a common response from the "free willers" AND the "cals." My belief is not what changes me, it is God's Spirit making me a new creature. But, my belief is what God requires of me before He will make any change.

(also what 2Timothy just said)

 

I also believe that God can and does convict people of sin before regeneration. It is just that men choose to love the sin more than Jesus. They feel bad about their sin, just not bad enough to change. Many who claim to be regenerate, are just professors and not possessors so to speak. They have not been changed and made new creations by God.

 

I used to be a paster for a paperhanger. Then I eventually learned to hang paper and became really good at it. Then I had my own paster. He pasted very well.

 

When you say "before He will make any change", do you mean before he causes you to be born again? John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. We believe it is not an exercise of the will to be born again.

 

Quite the paster was he? What a sticky situation.

 

This appears to be riding the fence. It seems to be a dance between irresistable grace and choosing to come to God. If man cannot come to God prior to regeneration why then would God convict man at this point?

 

This is a Baptist Only Forum

 

So they would be without excuse.

 

If he is searching for a church among Baptist churches I would say he is qualified.

 

Ok :godisgood:

 

So it is your position that man cannot be regenerated unless God provides it at a point when you do not want it. But he convicts the heart of the unregenerate (in other words those who cannot come to God) so they have no excuse. I hope I have articluated this correct. If Ihave not it is only a misperception and not intended.

The lack of excuse can only come into play after the ability to be regenerated is possible. Otherwise how can they be held to account for which they had no ability to do. With this line of thinking all children who die will go to hell. Even small babies.


Also the statement "So they would be without excuse" works against the idea that God created some people just for the sole purpose of damning them. which is a major point for reformed folks.

 

I don't think you understand reformed theology. Most calvinists do not believe that God created folks for the sole purpose of damning them. Do you not agree that God in His omniscience allows people to come into being whom God knows will never receive Him? Did He create them for damnation?

Do you think those in the furthest reaches of the jungle who have never heard about Jesus or the Gospel have a chance?

I await your answers.

 

I do and no.

I have seen this question a number of times but it is hypothetical and without evidence. If god requires that man come to Him by Christ alone then we can know that God has revealed Christ to all who have died.

Agian why would God need to ensure no excuse by convicting men of their sin prior to regeneration. It seems that you confuse regeneration with conviction.

 

I'm not the one confused here. God gives each man a conscience. Each man is aware of God, they just substitute what ever in place of the one true God. Read Romans 1.

God draws or calls all men. He only effectually calls the elect. Thats my position and i'm sticking with it. :laugh:

There is no such thing as a man who is crying out to God to save him, who can not. Election does not deny that.

If you think what I told you is hypothetical, you need to talk to the IMB. You are SBC are you not? Seems that is what your profile said. How can you say that God has revealed Christ to all who die? If anything is hypothetical or just an unbiblical opinion, that is. Most who die do so without ever hearing about Christ. You need to hear about many of the third world countries. As a matter of fact, there are many in the good ole USA who have never heard about Christ.

 

By the way 2 Tim........ I do not follow Calvin. I am a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please try to educate yourself about reformed theology before debating it. It would help your position very much.

 

You do follow after the teachings of John calvin.

Reformed theology came out of the Reformation and in particular the theology of Calvin (1509-1564), although its roots go back to Augustine (345-430), it was formulated by the puritans, especially in the Westminster confession of faith (1646). This Confession is the enduring fruit of the solemn Assembly of some 100 leading Puritan divines, convened at Westminster Abbey in London from July 1, 1643 through to Feb.,1649. Other reformed confessions: Belgic (1580), Baptist (1689), 39 Articles of the Church of England - Anglican and Episcopal (1571, 1662, 1801)


http://www.apocalipsis.org/reformed.htm