Cheap Grace

What does that mean. Are you suggesting that God died and calls all men to be saved but what? What is it that holds up the unsaved. Define efectual call.

 

You are exactly right. Pastor Larry keeps stating I don't understand reformed theology... and He believes regeneration follows faith in Christ, not precedes it. There are too many "brands" to know what exactly "reformed theology" consists of.

 

RB, this is an assumption and not fact. There can be no proof that substantiates this.

 

And everyone I have spoken with says the same thing when they get cornered.


"You need to study reformed theology before you debate". MY question is why? I am speaking with them based on their current words. Not someone elses paper. which seems most appropriate.

 

Again absolutely no proof. And if God said that men must come to him through Christ then we can know that everyone is given the opportunity to receive Christ.

 

Ok 2 Tim. I don't wanna argue over who knows more about reformed theology. I appologize for saying you need to learn more about it. Forgiven?

 

People throw around the "you are a follower of calvin" too much. I have never read calvin's writings. I am not a follower of calvin. I may follow reformed theology, but not John Calvin. I've heard he was an excellent theologian however. Maybe I'll read him someday. I may follow him then......lol

 

Yeah, I suppose God could supernaturally come to people who have never heard of Christ. I don't want to say He couldn't. Is that what you are saying web?

 

Or is that convienient for your system of belief 2 Tim? :thumbs:

 

As a former medic 2 Tim, I have to say you are wrong. Either that or people on their death bed lied to me. I have witnessed to a few who were never told about Christ. One received him before he died. He said he wanted to trust Jesus as his Savior.

Of course that could have been the only ones who had never heard, and God put me there so that they would........lol. Why not?

 

I don't understand what you are saying in the bold sir. Please explain. I'm not saying God died.

What holds up the unsaved is their depraved nature. They are of the devil. Read John 8 Romans 3 for starters.

Efectual call is when God sends the Holy Spirit to regenerate... to give a new nature. A nature that is not as children of wrath. All that the Father gives me will come. That is the effectual call. Those whom the Father gives.

 

2 Tim sir..... you say you have discussed reformed theology with many. Looking back at about 8 pages of your posts, ( I don't want to go farther than that) I don't see much about reformed theology. Mostly politics. I don't doubt your word however. Maybe you have discussed it farther down, or with others in a place other than this board.
You say you want to know what the effectual call is however. That is a rather reformed term. It seems you would know to what I refer. Anyway, I don't wanna argue. It seems unprofitable.

 

Well Web.... how about all those babies who die. Seems 2 Tim brought up that subject in this thread. Did those babies hear the Gospel? How about the ones who are aborted? By the way, I believe those babies who die go to heaven. I can not prove it with scripture, but that is what I want to believe. I think that God effectually calls them. How about you or 2 Tim? Do you believe in an effectual call? Do you believe babies go to heaven and how do you substantiate that with scripture?

 

I have not felt cornered yet..... but maybe I am. :laugh:

 

I repeat a question I have asked several times. Why, then, do we send missionaries?

I know, the Great Commission. So, is everybody exposed to a missionary preaching the Gospel? Or does God drop tracts from the sky into the Brazilian jungle? How does the gospel get to everybody? And if God can do it supernaturally, without using missionaries, etc., why do we send them in the first place?

 

I'm not sure, but there is no way I can know that either. It's between them and God. Revelation 14:6 does state that an angel of the Lord does share the Gospel with all mankind during the great tribulation, so there is at least one way the Gospel can be shared...angels. Since they are among us, I see no reason why God cannot send an angel to every person who lives.

 

Christ atoned for sin. Those who put their faith in Christ are saved. Faith is the evidence of what is hoped for and not seen according to Scripture. These ae the immutable truths that both cal's and non cal's agree to.
Now, in order to process evidence, or even hope for that matter requires some intellectual ability to do so. Romans 5 seems to indicate that upon the knowledge of God's law...then...sin comes alive, and the person dies. IMO this is the case with infants and the mentally disabled. I see the sin nature in the same light as the rest of humanity. As we grow, we learn to walk, talk, eat solid food, etc. This all comes naturally. The same thing applies with sin. As we grow, God's law becomes evident, and breaking these laws becomes known as separation from God. It is at this point "sin comes alive" according to Paul, and we die.

 

Yeah, I suppose "the age of accountability" has been debated somewhat huh? :thumbs:

Scripture does not give us enough information to dogmatically determine such an age. The thing I see though web is this; to simply fall short of the glory of God (perfection) is sin. I know when you look at your fine young son, it is hard to see anything but perfection. (he looks perfect to me) My little boy is 31 years old, and it seems like yesterday that he was your son's age. But the fact remains that they are less than perfect. There were some in the OT age that God declared righteous, in spite of evidence otherwise. I think what was meant is that they were about as righteous as a man could be, but less than perfect still. We absolutely needed that perfect sacrifice. As you know, the only sufficient sacrifice was Jesus. We have to have His righteousness applied to us. Thank you Lord! and thank you brother.

 

It would be impossible to pick one age where children magically become aware of their sin and need for a Saviour. Everyone matures at a different rate. Just as all bodies don't mature at the same time, neither do minds. A child raised in a Christian family and hearing the gospel will realize at a much younger age about Jesus and salvation than a child raised in an atheist family.

 

Just a little bit I think it is different for everyone, with infants and the MRDD never reaching it. We know that the age of accountability for the Israelites who entered the promised land was 20 and under (if my bad memory is correct).
I do agree that we are not born perfect, but I don't believe we are born guilty either, as the widely accepted Augustinian view of original sin states. We become guilty when "sin comes alive"

Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead.

*notice it doensn't say that sin doesnt' exist, or is not there, but apart from the law it lies dead.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

*spiritual death occured once this sin, revealed by the law, came alive. Spiritual death occurs at some point after one is born...which throws a monkey wrench into the calvinistic definition of total depravity.


Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.