Check out this

You're right, JArthur.......humble apologies.

 

Just a quick note about this:

"It should also be noted they give in their time line the idea that Augustine and Jerome were best buds. This is not the case at all. Augustine wrote a letter to Jerome, telling him he should not translate the Bible into Latin. Augustine believed all learning should come from the Greek. Remember now, Jerome was a hot head, and the two had words with each other for many years to come. After Jerome finished his work, Augustine did try to make peace with Jerome."

FYI, I would correct this to say that Augustine knew only Latin and didn't appreciate Jerome revising the Old Latin Bible with his Vulgate by consulting Hebrew and Greek because it changed some verses that he liked (probably for the better...maybe Augustine was OLO: Old Latin only)
.

BJ

 

Hi Brandon C. Jones, It is nice to meet you.

In fact, ...he never mastered Greek but he did use it in his studies-- he tells us that his first Greek teacher was a brutal man who constantly beat his students, and Augustine rebelled and refused to study. By the time he realized that he really needed to know Greek, it was too late... and although he acquired a smattering of the language, he was never really at home in it. However, his mastery of Latin was another matter as you have well stated.

Being that as it may.. this is not what I said. Agustine did not know greek very well, (I'm sure better then most of us), yet he was true to the Greek in his studies.

I give you the letter to Jerome...

This kinda sounds like KJVO of today, does it not? They cry the same..do not change..do not translate. And for some reason they think "the man from hippo" was not like them.

Makes you wonder..


In Christ..James

 

No big deal bapmom....

 

For the record...

Chipps got drunk and told Norris on the phone that he was coming to his office to kill him. Norris, understanding that Chipps might actually do it, got ahold of the night watchman's pistol that was kept in the desk. Chipps did draw the pistol he brought in his back pocket, but Norris outdrew him.

Despite all the efforts of the corrupt city government, the jury acquitted Norris on the first ballot.

He wasn't nearly so likely to shoot someone as I am. I'm usually armed when outside my house. Norris never carried a gun after he was saved.

 

Check this out

Hi everyone, I have been to The Touchet Baptist Church site for years now. I have listened to his sermons and used his notes. His notes are posted to be used while listening to his sermons, they can be misleading as to his intent if they are taken alone. Mike Paulson is not a Hylesite or a follower of Peter Ruckman. He does not ask people to follow him. He does not believe a Christian needs the Greek to understand the Word of God, He preaches that God gave us all we need in a rightly divided King James Bible. We do not need a scholar to interpret what God has given us. I consider him a good man and a friend just trying to live his life to please God.. If he teaches something that you feel is in error, email him with an open mind, if he is wrong he will correct himself , if he is right you have a choice to make. Take care, KJVO

 

Pipedude,

yup, thats how I heard the story, too.

But it would not have meant he was wrong if he HAD carried a gun after he was saved.

 

Hi KJVO,

Does it matter to you that the brochure "the path" found on this site, is full of mistakes and very misleading? I downloaded it if you want to see the mistakes and lies and would be glad to send you a copy. Would it not be better to tell the truth? If they are telling the truth, there is no need to tell one lie.

If Greek is indeed what the Bible was 1st wrote in, would it not be ok to go back and read the Greek? I know if your like must KJVO, you will say you do not know the Greek. I'm not asking you if you want to read Greek, I'm asking this...If I took time to learn Greek, would it be ok for me to read the Greek MSS, even if I'm a English speaking guy? In doing so, when I came across a word which is not found in the KJV which one should I believe? The Greek..or the KJV?

Touchet clearly teaches that the KJV is above the Greek. That is not only crazy, it is a cult that worships a translation.

 

From the Introduction to An Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament by George Ricker Berry, Ph.D.

The Value of Hebrew and Greek to the Clergyman

1. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot understand the critical commentaries of the Scripture, and a commentary that is not critical is of doubtful value.

2. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot satisfy yourself . . as to the changes which you will find in the Revised Old and New Testament.

3. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot appreciate the critical discussions relating to the Books of the Old and New Testament.

4. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot be certain that in your sermon based on a Scripture text, you are presenting the correct teaching of that text.

5. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot be an independent student or a reliable interpreter of the Word of God.

6. As much knowledge of Hebrew can be secured in one year with the aid of an Interlinear Old Testament as can be gained of Latin in three years. Greek, though somewhat more difficult, may be readily acquired with the aid of an Interlinear New Testament/Lexicon.

7. The Hebrew language has, in all, 7000 words, and of them 1000 are repeated over 25 times each in the Old Testament.

8. Hebrew grammar has but one form of the Relative pronoun in all cases, numbers and genders; by three forms for the Demonstrative pronoun. The possible verbal forms are about 300 as compared with the 1200 found in Greek. It has practically no declension.

9. Within ten years, the average man wastes more time in fruitless reading and indifferent talk, that would be used in acquiring a good working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek that in turn would impart to his teaching that quality of independence and of reliability which so greatly enhances one's power as a teacher.

10. There is not one minister in ten who might not if he but would, find time and opportunity for such study of Hebrew and Greek as would enable him to make a thoroughly practical use of it in his work as a Bible-preacher and Bible-teacher.

 

Seems like it was John Leland whom I read long ago saying that he'd never seen a minister correcting the English Bible with the Greek unless the correction pointed the text toward the minister's own beliefs. Since then I've watched preachers in action and, sho 'nuff, it's true 100 times out of 100.

Seems like, by rights, occasionally the Greek ought to surprise the preacher by revealing something that contradicted his beliefs.

In fact, though, if you can say it in Greek, you can say it in English. Language is like that. It may take more words in one language than another, but language is language. There's nothing magical about the Greek. But if you're the only one who knows the Greek alphabet and the Erasmian pronunciation, you can pass for something close to a magician--and who can stand up to you when you say "it's in the Greek"?

A new Baptist distinctive: the priesthood of the second-year Greek student.

 

gb,

so according to Berry I cannot be a student of the Bible nor really have a proper understanding of it unless I have some knowledge of the Greek?

Isn't that elevating the Greek to cult-like worship status?

If my KJV is no better than the Greek, than the Greek is no better than the KJV.

 

Hello Pipedude,

You make a very good point here and I know what you mean for I too have seen this in action many times.

However this 100% I have not seen. I have seen/heard a preacher many times stand up and say...
"You know for years I have looked at this passage this way...But when I looked up the Greek words, I found this..."

This has come from well known preachers and also from local pastors. And this I think shows a mans heart. I have changed my views at times, by reading the a New Testament/Lexicon. I don't know how many times while teaching the book of Hebrews I read other writers on a hard passage and could not find a peace of understanding in their words. In the 6th chapter where it seems everyone has a new idea of how to read this chapter, I must have read close to 50 writers and none did I feel 100% peace with. I was not looking for ways to match my outline, I was looking for the truth.

Not sure if you have ever done this before or not Pipedude, but every now and then I will find myself looking for ways to prove my point...when it hits me....Its not about what I believe...its about the truth. I have more then once had to stop my studies pray and ask God to forgive me for placing ME in the forefront and not the truth. Sad to say, I still do this to this day. It's so easy to just find ways to show what you believe to be true and not be open for the very truth. Yet I know in my heart, when I do this, it is I that plays the fool.

But in Hebrews 6 finding no writer that I could agree with 100% I took the time and wrote the full chapter the best I could with the help of 2 New Testament Lexicons and Strongs ..going word for word. I then studied what I wrote and compared this to translations of the Bible. I then was able to find a meaning that I felt was true to the writen Word of God. This was not far from some writers, but when reading them they left out small points that made it all fit...that is in my now held view.

Although as I have already said, I do not always follow this path of looking for the real meaning, but in this one case, when I feel I did the right thing...not just taking other writers words for it...I now have a greater understanding of the text. This came from the study of the language and not the writers i trusted the most.

I would therefore state again that most will only use the language to prove their point just as you said, although this is not always bad, but if used in the right way, with the right heart the truth will come forth.

Yes indeed. But in this lies the problem. In translation we must use the words of the language we are translating into. That is the point...is it not? Some words will not translate with just one word, but you must have 2-3 maybe even 4 words to carry the idea. And everyone has their own idea as to what words are better to use. And then you have the meaning of just one word. The word run in English can mean jog, lope, flow, proceed, manage, operate…and many other things

Yet, to operate is not the same as to jog. But running is operating and jogging.

Now if you have 3 words that must be used and each word has many meanings of its own like the word run....you now have many combinations of words just to translate one word. Now...place 57 people in a room and ask them what words should be used to translate one Greek word to English. It is my guess you will have more then 1 idea given. Nope...not a guess...look at the translations we now have.

So if many words are placed on the table to look at, what do we use to help pick the right words? One word...CONTEXT. Context then plays the biggest role in translations and not the words used. It is the message that must be carried. If this means 2 words or 3 words so be it. More translations then will HELP US not hurt us. We can then look at each translation seeing the words used in each, to have a better understanding of the MESSAGE.


In Christ..James

 

You're right.

OTOH, the abominations that have been committed in my hearing by appeals to "the Greek" continue to rise up before me. Their name is Legion, for they are many.

I cannot count the number of times that a sermon has become an exegesis of what some lexicon says, rather than the passage of Scripture that a word occurs in. Three points in a message, based on three sections of a lexicon's definition.

I've seen a doctrine based on the exegesis of the phrase "with results continuing," since that phrase occurs in some explanations of the Greek perfect tense.

I've seen men who didn't even know Greek trying to pronounce some Greek word and basing their doctrine on "the Greek," and expecting their hearers to believe them because of "the Greek."

I've seen men say that a Greek word cannot mean so-and-so, oblivious of the fact that Greek-speaking Christians used the word in exactly that way in the second century.

All of these things would have been avoided by careful, prayerful study of two good translations in the preacher's mother tongue. Anything in "the Greek" can be said in English.

True scholarship has a healthy measure of reticence in it. The other kind crows, barrels ahead, and behaves itself unseemly. It drives some unstable listeners over the edge, and they wind up making web sites like Touchet's.