Checking It Out With The Strong's Greek Dictionary

[Just Andrew]

There are only two Greek words for the words for tribulation:
thlipsis and thlibo.


CONTEXT:


The trib of the disciples of Jesus:


Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27; (20) Rev.1: 9; (21) Rev.2: 22; (22) Rev.7: 14.


Affliction OF THE ISRAELITES: Heb.11: 25.


Unbelievers: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you;.." (2Th 1: 6-7), also Rom.2: 9.


MEGAS (great) thlipsis 3 times: Rev.2: 22; Rev.7: 14; and Mat.24: 21-22.


Rev.2: 22: CHRISTIANS at Tyhatira warned by Jesus that unless they repent of following doctrines of Jezebel, Jesus will throw them into great tribulation – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works


Rev.7: 14: multitude came out of great trib.

In Mat.24: 22: FOR THE ELECT’S sake, the days of “great tribulation” (Mat.24: 21) will be shortened + Mar.13: 19, 24. In Luke 21, Luke uses neither the word thlipsis, nor the word thlibo.

Rom.5: 9 -we are saved from wrath:

“Wrath” (Greek orge): Mat.3: 7; Luk.3: 7; Luk.21: 23; Joh.3: 36; Rom.1: 18; Rom.2: 5; Rom.2: 8; Rom.3: 5; Rom.4: 15; Rom.5: 9; Rom.9: 22; Rom.12: 19; Rom.13: 5; Eph.2: 3; Eph.5: 6; Col.3: 6; 1Th.1: 10; 1Th.2: 16; 1Th.5: 9; Heb.3: 11; Heb.4: 3; Rev.6: 16; Rev.6: 17; Rev.11: 18; Rev.16: 19; and Rev.19: 15.


Wrath (Greek thumos): Rev.14: 10; Rev.14: 19; Rev.15: 1: Rev.15: 7; Rev.16: 1; Rev.14: 8, and Rev.18: 3.



Rev.16 links SIXTH bowl of WRATH with “the Day of the LORD”.


“Birth-pains” leading up to “the great tribulation” are mentioned from Mat.24: 4-8.


Mat.24: 9 begins with the word “then” (Greek: tote – “the time of”). This word used 8 times till v.30, and verses 9-31 are joined by the words “then”, “and”, “for”, “but”, and “therefore” – in fact, it continues like this all the way to the end of Matthew 25, and the context remains the return of Christ and the end of the age throughout.


Great trib the Roman war against Israel (66-70 A.D)?


(“… and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? – Mat.24: 3b). Not recorded by Mark and Luke’s versions (Mar.13: 4 and Luk.21: 7). Should we interpret Matthew’s account “in the light of” Mark’s and Luke’s accounts?



ELECT gathered “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the days of great tribulation: (Mat.24: 29-31).-


Surely the Word “therefore” in Mat.24: 15 joins what was said before this verse to what follows this verse?


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then (Greek: tote – “the time of”) shall the end come.” (Mat.24: 14).

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: thlipsis – tribulation), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.” (Mat.24: 9).




Part of the Church got the words “great tribulation” mixed up with the words “the Day of the LORD”?


“The time of JACOB’S trouble” (Jer.30: 7) and “the great tribulation” (Mat.24: 21-22) TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN?


“At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.” (Deut.17: 6)?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Do you have a point?

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

There are only two Greek words for the words for tribulation:
thlipsis and thlibo.


CONTEXT:


The trib of the disciples of Jesus:


Mat.13: 21; (2) Mat.24: 9; (3) Mar.4: 16-17; (4) Joh.16: 33; (5) Act.14: 22; (6) Rom.8: 35; (7) Rom.12: 12; (8) 2Cor.1: 4; (9) 2Cor.1: 8; (10) 2Cor.2: 4; (11) 2Cor.4: 17; (12) 2Cor.7: 4; (13) 2Cor.8: 2; (14) Phil.1: 16; (15) Phil.4: 14; (16) 1Thes.1: 6; (17, 18) 2Thes.1: 4, 6; (19) Jam.1: 27; (20) Rev.1: 9; (21) Rev.2: 22; (22) Rev.7: 14.


Affliction OF THE ISRAELITES: Heb.11: 25.


Unbelievers: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God TO RECOMPENSE tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibo) you;.." (2Th 1: 6-7), also Rom.2: 9.


MEGAS (great) thlipsis 3 times: Rev.2: 22; Rev.7: 14; and Mat.24: 21-22.


Rev.2: 22: CHRISTIANS at Tyhatira warned by Jesus that unless they repent of following doctrines of Jezebel, Jesus will throw them into great tribulation – and this is AFTER He had acknowledged their love, faith, patience, service and works


Rev.7: 14: multitude came out of great trib.

In Mat.24: 22: FOR THE ELECT’S sake, the days of “great tribulation” (Mat.24: 21) will be shortened + Mar.13: 19, 24. In Luke 21, Luke uses neither the word thlipsis, nor the word thlibo.

Rom.5: 9 -we are saved from wrath:

“Wrath” (Greek orge): Mat.3: 7; Luk.3: 7; Luk.21: 23; Joh.3: 36; Rom.1: 18; Rom.2: 5; Rom.2: 8; Rom.3: 5; Rom.4: 15; Rom.5: 9; Rom.9: 22; Rom.12: 19; Rom.13: 5; Eph.2: 3; Eph.5: 6; Col.3: 6; 1Th.1: 10; 1Th.2: 16; 1Th.5: 9; Heb.3: 11; Heb.4: 3; Rev.6: 16; Rev.6: 17; Rev.11: 18; Rev.16: 19; and Rev.19: 15.


Wrath (Greek thumos): Rev.14: 10; Rev.14: 19; Rev.15: 1: Rev.15: 7; Rev.16: 1; Rev.14: 8, and Rev.18: 3.



Rev.16 links SIXTH bowl of WRATH with “the Day of the LORD”.


“Birth-pains” leading up to “the great tribulation” are mentioned from Mat.24: 4-8.


Mat.24: 9 begins with the word “then” (Greek: tote – “the time of”). This word used 8 times till v.30, and verses 9-31 are joined by the words “then”, “and”, “for”, “but”, and “therefore” – in fact, it continues like this all the way to the end of Matthew 25, and the context remains the return of Christ and the end of the age throughout.


Great trib the Roman war against Israel (66-70 A.D)?


(“… and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? – Mat.24: 3b). Not recorded by Mark and Luke’s versions (Mar.13: 4 and Luk.21: 7). Should we interpret Matthew’s account “in the light of” Mark’s and Luke’s accounts?



ELECT gathered “IMMEDIATELY AFTER” the days of great tribulation: (Mat.24: 29-31).-


Surely the Word “therefore” in Mat.24: 15 joins what was said before this verse to what follows this verse?


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then (Greek: tote – “the time of”) shall the end come.” (Mat.24: 14).

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: thlipsis – tribulation), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.” (Mat.24: 9).




Part of the Church got the words “great tribulation” mixed up with the words “the Day of the LORD”?


“The time of JACOB’S trouble” (Jer.30: 7) and “the great tribulation” (Mat.24: 21-22) TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN?


“At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.” (Deut.17: 6)?

You have done a lot of work here. I commend you for your efforts. Unfortunately most of what you say is in error due to the fact you failed to factor in Christ's coming and the "first resurrection" to be in three phases.

1. Christ's first advent and His resurrection is the first phase of the "first resurrection" (Col. 1:18).
2. Christ's coming "in the air" and the resurrection/translation of the Church Age believers before the beginning of the seven year Tribulation is the second phase of the "first resurrection" (I Thess. 4:16-17).
3. Christ's second coming to the earth and the resurrection of martyred Tribulation saints (Rev. 20:5-6)..

 

[Just Andrew]

Do you have a point?

I had to delete explanations of the point, or the post would have been too long - was hoping it would be o.k.

The point is that the words

distress/suffering/persecution/trouble/affliction/tribulation found in our English-language Bibles are translated from only two Greek words: thlipsis and thlibo - thlibo only appears twice, in the context of the trib of Christians at the hand of unbelievers, and 27 out of the 29 references to thlipsis in the Greek N.T are in the same context. The only two exceptions are Rom.2: 9 and:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (thlipsis)to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (2Th 1: 6-7) - also the only verses where the word thlibo comes up.

Since all the other references to tribulation (thlipsis) in the Greek N.T are in the context of the trib of Christians at the hand of unbelievers, and since two of the only three references to MEGAS (great) thlipsis (tribulation) in the Greek N.T (see my post) are in the same context, and since the the days of the great trib are said in Mat.24: 21-22 to be shortened for the elect's sake, it is highly unlikely (contrary to the teaching of a great many churches) that the great trib refers to the wrath of God which will come upon the world at the time of the world's judgment - since "Armageddon" or "the Day of the LORD" are found in the context of the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath - not in the context of "megas thlipsis" (Great Tribulation).

I'm definitely not going to argue with the Dr's reply to my post, but I'll agree to disagree about what he says about there being more than one resurrection at the end of this age:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1Cor.15: 22-23). One resurrection at the end of this age - after the great trib of the disciples of the Lamb, at the last trumpet, immediately before the "day of the LORD". "The first resurrection" is clearly portrayed as the resurrection of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus (Rev.20: 4-5). But this has been debated without end, so I'll drop it after this - because it also depends on whether or not one believes in a literal millennium.

 

[Just Andrew]

Thanks very much for taking the time and trouble to reply to my thread, Dr Ketchum. I'll be thinking about what you said, bearing in mind the last words of my signature, - but in the mean time, as I said, I'll agree to disagree with you on that one - as long as we'll both be laughing our heads off in heaven together one day!

 

[Pastor Larry]

You are making a couple of mistakes.

First, it is a mistake to do word studies as you have. A given word has meaning only in a context. In a different context, it may have a different meaning. You can't look up all the uses of X and think that they all refer to the same thing. You must study ideas rather than words in Scripture.

Second, you are confusing tribulation with The Tribulation. The Tribulation in Scripture is the wrath of God on unbelievers. God's wrath never comes on believers. When you say, "since "Armageddon" or "the Day of the LORD" are found in the context of the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath - not in the context of "megas thlipsis" (Great Tribulation)," you are mistaken because the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath (along with the seals and trumpet) are part of the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation.


The Tribulation is called a number of things in Scripture.

• The Day of the Lord – This term refers to a period of time when God intervenes in human history to bring either judgment or blessing, or judgment followed by blessing, on his people Israel. It is a phrase commonly seen in the Old Testament prophets, and occasionally in the New Testament. It is sometimes called simply “that day” (Isaiah 30:23–25; 34:1–8; Joel 2:28–32; 3:1–21; Zephaniah 3:8, 16–20; 1 Thessalonians 5:1).

• The Great Tribulation – This term is used in Matthew 24:9, 21, 29, and Revelation 7:14 to refer specifically to the second half of the Tribulation, when the judgments from God intensify.

• The Time of Jacob’s Trouble – The prophet Jeremiah uses this term in Jeremiah 30:7 to designate a great day of judgment, unlike any other. This term specifically tells us who this judgment will be brought upon. “Jacob” here is a term for the nation of Israel. Therefore, the “time of Jacob’s trouble” is a time of judgment brought on the nation of Israel. Jeremiah tells us that Israel will be saved from this day; they will not be totally destroyed.

• The wrath of God – This phrase, when used of the Tribulation, refers to God’s act in pouring out his judgments on sinners for their sin (Zephaniah 1:15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9; Revelation 11:18; 15:1; 16:1).

• The Seventieth Week of Daniel – This phrase is derived from Daniel 9:24–27 to designate the last of a “seventy week” period that God has prophesied for the nation of Israel. In our next session, we will look specifically at Daniel 9 to see exactly what the seventy weeks are, and what happens in the seventieth week.

Notice these other descriptions of this Tribulation period.

… the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10)
… the hour of His judgment (Revelation 14:7)
… the hour of testing (Revelation 3:10)
… destruction from the Almighty (Joel 1:15.)
… darkness and not light (Amos 5:18)
…a complete destruction (Daniel 9:27)
… in that day… the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high And the kings of the earth on earth (Isaiah 24:20)

All of that to say that the method you used to arrive at your conclusion is a faulty method.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

Dispensational Charts

Andrew,

Here is a link to some dispensational charts of the end times on my web site that might be helpful:

http://www.disciplemakerministries.org/Pages/Charts/ChartIndex.htm

If you click on the title and then the PDF, the files will open in full PDF for you.

God bless as you study His Word.

 

[Rippon]

Andrew, you can dispense with Dispensationalism -- that will help you as you study God's Word.

 

[EdSutton]

I had to delete explanations of the point, or the post would have been too long - was hoping it would be o.k.

The point is that the words

distress/suffering/persecution/trouble/affliction/tribulation found in our English-language Bibles are translated from only two Greek words: thlipsis and thlibo - thlibo only appears twice, in the context of the trib of Christians at the hand of unbelievers, and 27 out of the 29 references to thlipsis in the Greek N.T are in the same context. The only two exceptions are Rom.2: 9 and:

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (thlipsis)to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (2Th 1: 6-7) - also the only verses where the word thlibo comes up.

Since all the other references to tribulation (thlipsis) in the Greek N.T are in the context of the trib of Christians at the hand of unbelievers, and since two of the only three references to MEGAS (great) thlipsis (tribulation) in the Greek N.T (see my post) are in the same context, and since the the days of the great trib are said in Mat.24: 21-22 to be shortened for the elect's sake, it is highly unlikely (contrary to the teaching of a great many churches) that the great trib refers to the wrath of God which will come upon the world at the time of the world's judgment - since "Armageddon" or "the Day of the LORD" are found in the context of the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath - not in the context of "megas thlipsis" (Great Tribulation).

I'm definitely not going to argue with the Dr's reply to my post, but I'll agree to disagree about what he says about there being more than one resurrection at the end of this age:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1Cor.15: 22-23). One resurrection at the end of this age - after the great trib of the disciples of the Lamb, at the last trumpet, immediately before the "day of the LORD". "The first resurrection" is clearly portrayed as the resurrection of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus (Rev.20: 4-5). But this has been debated without end, so I'll drop it after this - because it also depends on whether or not one believes in a literal millennium.

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

You might wanna consider that one word is the noun form of the other, a verb, here.

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (thlipsis)to them that trouble (thlibo) you; And to you who are troubled (thlibo) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (2Th 1: 6-7) - also the only verses where the word thlibo comes up.

Not exactly true.

The word "thlibO" is found (as translated in the KJV) in Mt. 7:14; Mk. 3:9; II Cor. 1:6; 4:8; 7:5; I Thes. 3:4; II Thes. 1:6,7; I Tim. 5:10; Heb. 11:37, according to Strong. The way I count, that is 10 times. And I didn't even have to use any toes on this one - only fingers.

Perhaps you intended to say that is the only times the words occur 'together', as in close proximity.

Ed

 

[Pastor Larry]

Andrew, you can dispense with Dispensationalism -- that will help you as you study God's Word.

I think Andrew is actually arguing against dispensationalism (though it is not yet entirely clear). But having said that, the abandonment of dispensationalism is what leads to all sorts of problems in understanding the text.

 

[Just Andrew]

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

You might wanna consider that one word is the noun form of the other, a verb, here.

Not exactly true.

The word "thlibO" is found (as translated in the KJV) in Mt. 7:14; Mk. 3:9; II Cor. 1:6; 4:8; 7:5; I Thes. 3:4; II Thes. 1:6,7; I Tim. 5:10; Heb. 11:37, according to Strong. The way I count, that is 10 times. And I didn't even have to use any toes on this one - only fingers.

Perhaps you intended to say that is the only times the words occur 'together', as in close proximity.

Ed

Thank you, Ed. But can you point out to me in which one of the verses you've quoted above, the word "thlibo" appears in the context of the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, or the tribulation of the world at the hand of God?

Just Andrew.

 

[Just Andrew]

You are making a couple of mistakes.

"First, it is a mistake to do word studies as you have. A given word has meaning only in a context. In a different context, it may have a different meaning. You can't look up all the uses of X and think that they all refer to the same thing. You must study ideas rather than words in Scripture...."

That's true, but in the first post I listed all the verses in the New Testament where the word thlipsis (which means tribulation or affliction) is found in the CONTEXT of the tribulation or affliction of Christians - none of the verses were speaking of the tribulation of unbelievers at the hand of Christians - or at the hand of God.

The word "megas" or "great" found with the word "thlipsis is only describing the degree of the thlipsis/tribulation.

"Second, you are confusing tribulation with The Tribulation. The Tribulation in Scripture is the wrath of God on unbelievers..."

I'll ask a different question then: Aside from Rom.2: 9 and 2Th.1: 6-7, can you point out to me the verses in New Testament scripture where the context of the tribulation being spoken of is the tribulation of the world at the hand of God at the time of His judgment upon the world?

"God's wrath never comes on believers. When you say, "since "Armageddon" or "the Day of the LORD" are found in the context of the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath - not in the context of "megas thlipsis" (Great Tribulation)," you are mistaken because the 6th and 7th bowls of wrath (along with the seals and trumpet) are part of the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation..."

I see a very clear distinction between the context that the words tribulation, affliction, trouble, suffering (translations of the words thlipsis and thlibo) (on one hand), and the words orge and thumos (wrath) on the other hand, are found in,- precisely because every time the word wrath comes up in the New Testament, it is in the context of God's judgment upon the world or the context of man's wrath, etc - but it is never in the context of the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the world - or, naturally, at the hand of God, since we are saved from this wrath.

Not so, however, with respect to the words thlipsis and thlibo which have been translated variously as tribulation, affliction, suffering, distress etc - not even in Rev.2: 22 and Rev.7: 14 where these words are accompanied with the word megas (great), or in Mat.24: 21-22 where the Lord Jesus promised that the days of that particular period of great tribulation will be shortened for the elect's sake. The only exceptions to this rule that I've found are Rom.2: 9 and 2Th.1: 6 (where we are told the world will be repaid with tribulation (thlipsis) for the trouble (thlibo) it had brought upon the saints).

I have searched an searched the New Testament for other verses (aside from Rom.2: 9 and 2Th.1: 6) where these words thlipsis and thlibo appear in the context of the tribulation of unbelievers at the hand of God - at any period of time, and I simply can't find it.

The Day of the Lord in the book of Revelation is linked with the sixth and seventh bowls of God's WRATH which will be ppoured out upon the world - not the sixth and seventh bowls of "tribulation". The words thlipsis and thlibo don't appear again in Revelation 16.

I certainly don't have a problem with the final seven-year period. What I question is the terminology we use to describe this final seven-year period - since it appears that while the Old Testament is full of prophecies regarding "the Day of the LORD" (which, in the context of all those prophecies, always refers to God's judgment of the nations in a day they attack Jerusalem - hence, "the time of JACOB'S trouble", out of which JACOB will be saved through God's judgment of the nations which have gathered around Israel - Jer.30: 7 and Jeremiah chapters 30-31, Joel chapter 2-3, Zechariah chapters 12-14, etc), yet this "Day of the LORD" is found in the New Testament ONLY in the context of the sixth and seventh bowls of WRATH - it is never found in the context in which the words thlipsis and thlibo and the words megas thlipsis (great tribulation)are found in the New Testament. If it is, I have never found it.

Andrew

 

[Pastor Larry]

That's true, but in the first post I listed all the verses in the New Testament where the word thlipsis (which means tribulation or affliction) is found in the CONTEXT of the tribulation or affliction of Christians - none of the verses were speaking of our tribulation at the hand of others in an unbelieving world.

The word "megas" or "great" found with the word "thlipsis is only describing the degree of the thlipsis/tribulation.

But again, what is your point? I am still not sure what you are arguing for/against here. Furthermore, you listed places where “thlipsis” occurs. What about places where the same idea is described by another word?

I'll ask a different question then: Aside from Rom.2: 9 and 2Th.1: 6-7, can you point out to me the verses in New Testament scripture where the context of the tribulation being spoken of is the tribulation of the world at the hand of God at the time of His judgment upon the world?

Revelation comes to mind, as does Daniel.

I see a very clear distinction … we are told the world will be repaid with tribulation (thlipsis) for the trouble (thlibo) it had brought upon the saints.

Not sure what you are saying in this paragraph. It appears that you are trying to argue that the thlipsis word group is used only in the context of believers. If so, that is simply incorrect on two counts: First, it isn’t; second, the Tribulation is described by a great many more words than thlipsis.

I have searched an searched the New Testament for other verses (aside from Rom.2: 9 and 2Th.1: 6) where these words thlipsis and thlibo appear in the context of the tribulation of unbelievers at the hand of God - at any period of time, and I simply can't find it.

Which is part of the problem I pointed out. You are looking for a word, not an idea. You must look for the idea.

The Day of the Lord in the book of Revelation is linked with the sixth and seventh bowls of God's WRATH which will be ppoured out upon the world - not the sixth and seventh bowls of "tribulation".

The DOL is much larger than that in the Bible.

The words thlipsis and thlibo don't appear again in Revelation 16.

Which doesn’t matter.

What I question is the terminology we use to describe this final seven-year period

We are used to using theological words that are not found in the Bible to describe a theological concept. However, the word Tribulation is appropriate for that seven year period of time.

- since it appears that while the Old Testament is full of prophecies regarding "the Day of the LORD" (which, in the context of all those prophecies, always refers to God's judgment of the nations in a day they attack Jerusalem - hence, "the time of JACOB'S trouble", out of which JACOB will be saved through God's judgment of the nations which have gathered around Israel - Jer.30: 7 and Jeremiah chapters 30-31, Joel chapter 2-3, Zechariah chapters 12-14, etc), yet this "Day of the LORD" is found in the New Testament ONLY in the context of the sixth and seventh bowls of WRATH - it is never found in the context in which the words thlipsis and thlibo and the words megas thlipsis (great tribulation)are found in the New Testament. If it is, I have never found it.

1 Thess 5:1 uses DOL in the context of the Tribulation.



I must confess again (and pardon my ignorance) I am still not sure what you are trying to argue for or against here.

 

[gb93433]

Andrew,

Here is a link to some dispensational charts of the end times on my web site that might be helpful

What is Innocency?

 

[Just Andrew]

"I must confess again (and pardon my ignorance) I am still not sure what you are trying to argue for or against here.

"

I beg you pardon, Pastor Larry. I should have made the point a long time ago. I think the New Testament seems to be using the words thlipsis and thlibo (no matter which English words are used to translate these words) and the words megas thlipsis in the context of things that happen to Christians at the hand of unbelievers and the authorities of an unbelieving world - not in the context of what is eventually going to happen to those unblievers, and to that unbelieving world, at the hand of God - what happens to them is described as "wrath", and "the Day of the LORD". And I think the words used in the Greek New Testament are as important as the ideas those words seek to convey.

For the above reason I believe (despite the fact that I would prefer not to believe it) that (the) "Great Tribulation" the New Testament talks about, will be the final and greatest wave of tribulation the saints will endure at the hand of this world - and it will occur in the middle of the final seven-year period, immediately before the wrath of God begins to be poured out upon the world as a result of that great tribulation they have brought upon us.

Rev.13: 7 says, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." (see also Dan.7: 21).

"The beast" has made war with the saints a number of times in the past (such as in the days of Nero and of the Reformation) - but did not overcome them. We are also told that "the beast that rises from the bottomless pit" will make war with "the two witnesses" of the Lamb, overcome them and kill them (Rev.11: 7).

When I ask why the Lord will allow such a thing, I notice that in rev.2: 18-22, the Lord Jesus warned the Chrisians at Tyatira that unless they repented of following the false prophetess Jezebel, He Himself would throw them into megas thlipsis (great tribulation), then I notice that in Mat.24: 21-22, the Lord stated that the days of the great tribulation (megas thlipsis) would be shortened for the elect's sake. Then I notice that in Rev.7: 14, John saw a multitude which had come out from the great tribulation and had whashed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, and in Rev.20, those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus lived again and reigned with Him, in what John called the "first" resurrection - but this is quite evidently the first resurrection subsequent to the resurrection of Christ, since Paul said,

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1Cor.15: 22).

Andrew

 

[Rippon]

I think Andrew is actually arguing against dispensationalism (though it is not yet entirely clear). But having said that, the abandonment of dispensationalism is what leads to all sorts of problems in understanding the text.

As I said on another thread -- Calvinists are not all on the same page in their eschatology.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

What is Innocency?

The Dispensation of Innocency is the Dispensation prior to the fall of Adam and Eve and before the Curse.

 

[EdSutton]

Thank you, Ed. But can you point out to me in which one of the verses you've quoted above, the word "thlibo" appears in the context of the wrath of God being poured out upon the world, or the tribulation of the world at the hand of God?

Just Andrew.

Don't know off the top of my head, and honestly don't have the time to look it up, at the moment.

I was merely pointing out the statement you made about the use of 'thlibO' was factually unclear; I was not trying to derive (or prove) any particular theology from it.

Sorry, for the lack of time. Gotta' run.

Ed

 

[gb93433]

The Dispensation of Innocency is the Dispensation prior to the fall of Adam and Eve and before the Curse.

I was always taught that it was innocence. That is the first time I have read anything different.

 

[Dr. L.T. Ketchum]

I was always taught that it was innocence. That is the first time I have read anything different.

There is a slight varation in nuance between the two words.

Innocence is the quality of state of being (innocent)

Innocency is the quality of a thing or act (obedience)

Both are equally true.

God created man is the state of innocence.

However, I chose the the word innocency in that it also reflects that Adam & Eve chose to obey and lived in innocency until they chose to sin.