Child molesters and other perpetrators in church?

absolutely agreed, El Guero.

 

None of which are biblical grounds, the basis for church operation. In addition, sex offender registration may preclude being around schools and playgrounds, but I don't think it includes churches. If it did, I would be dead set against it, and it would be grounds for civil disobedience inasmuch as church attendance is required by God, and we ought to obey God rather than man.

How does watching out for the flock require the public announcement of sins a man has repented of? I am not sure I follow you there.

Why not? If this is part of the ministry of the church, it can be done. If the church is committed to protecting the children of hte flock while ministering to the whole flock, there is no reason this cannot be done. Remember, a saved and repentant child molester is as much a part of the flock as a child, and even more so, since the offender is saved and the child might not be. We have to protect the offender as well.

I don't think any of those things would actually fly in court. Furthermore, the church is responsible to all its members, including the sex offender. So you assign a deacon to be with the man at all times.

[qupte]Some states do have laws that prohibit convicted sex offenders from being around schools and churches.[/quote]As I say, I am not sure about the latter (churches), but it would be cause for civil disobedience since church attendance is God's requirement and cannot be forbidden by man.

We do.

Some do. If your church doesn't, then talk to your pastor.

This is true, but that's a far cry from broadcasting it. If a member of the church found out and then indiscriminately began to broadcast that information, they would be subject to church discipline for gossip.

I can find no biblical warrant to expose confessed and repented sins to the congregation. So far, no one has been helpful in giving us biblical basis for it. Guarding the flock can be done without unnecessary exposure.

 

I am not sure what you are referring to. Some states maintain a clergy-penitent privilege even in the case of child molestation. In some states, the requirement is unclear. I am not saying hte pastor should avail himself of that privilege, but it does exist. However, you are correct that the church should be vigilant.

Expunging a record will not allow a person to "honestly" say they have never been convicted.

That's a good thing to do.

The other thing I would say is that we should pay attention to the kind of sex crime they were convicted of. A 19 year old college freshman who dates a 17 year old high school senior and has sex with her is guilty of a sex crime. If the issue is pushed and he is convicted, he will likely have to register. What he did can hardly be put in teh same category with child abuse. I know a guy right now who slept with a high school senior, married her, has kids with her, but still has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life for it. That's really an abuse of the principle, since it was consensual (even though it was sinful).

So the fact that someone shows up on a sex offender list doesn't mean that they are guilty of molesting children.

For those of you who believe that sex offenders should not be allowed in church, what NT institution do you suggest that they find the worship, fellowship, instruction, and service in? Where should they go since you don't think they should be allowed in church?

I also wonder if making it public won't have a negative affect on the person. I would think many people want a chance to start over, especially if they are repentant. They don't want to wonder what people are thinking of them every time they pass them in hallway. And I don't see why they should be subjected to that, provided that proper steps of restoration were taken. I just am not sure I see the value in that at all.

 

Being a father, I understand the harshness of folks and also feel the rage within me whenever I hear of child-molestation.

However, I hear and understand Pastor Larry.

It's a difficult dilemma for me.

Perhaps a special ministry church would be a workable solution.
But then the local neighborhood would probably be up in arms.

HankD

 

And what is the NT basis for a "special ministry" church? Doesn't the NT teach that we are all one in Christ? No more Jew or Gentile, slave of free, Scythian or Barbarian, male or female? I can't recall any NT basis for setting up a church for people we don't want in ours. That seems totally contrary to the NT teaching on love and forgiveness.

Your legal counsel is giving you a legal opinion. The offender may not legally be required to report it. But honesty is a different matter. He cannot honestly say he was never convicted because he was. If he is honest, he will tell you that. Most repentant child molesters undersatnd the position they are putting the church in and will want to help make it clear. Others can be taught. If he doesn't tell you that, then he is not being honest. He may not legally have to tell you, but he cannot be honest while withholding it.

In my almost five years on this board, this is the most heartbreaking thing I have ever read. For you to declare that you are unwilling to minister to people for whom Christ died is unconscionable. I don't even know what to say to that. Absolutely disgusting. Heartbreaking beyond belief.

On what biblical basis have you decided that you can choose to not minister to people for whom Christ died? On what biblical basis do you start a special needs church? Wayne, you did not come to this conclusion biblically. You came to it pragmatically because apparently you don't want to get your hands dirty in ministry. I just cannot fathom the kind of heart that would make a statement like this. I don't mean to beat up on you Wayne, but unless you have some Scripture you have not yet used, you are not approaching this biblically. I can understand fear, protection, guarding yourself and others. I can't understand what would cause you to say you refuse to minister to people for whom Christ died. Are you better than Christ? How can you say this? What kind of grace did you receive from Christ that manifests itself in this manner?

 

The church needs to quit worrying so much about background checks. Im not against them except when they take the place of how we are to determine who should be on staff at a church.

Payer and fasting with the word of God is all but ignored these days. It has gone by the way side as a method of determining Gods will. It is looked at as insufficient because of changing times. We do not need background checks or any other kind of check outside of what is in scripture.

No wonder the church has grown weak. God can speak to us more clearer than any background check.And if you have trouble hearing God on these issues then you have no business being a decision maker.

Prayer, fasting, and scripture is all sufficient, I wonder how God called pastors before these things became available 40 years ago.

What a shame.

 

Well, using this line of reason many would say to segregate away forgiven pedophiles from children in a given local church is just as bad.

They are not allowed to escape their sin. Can not Christ completely forgive sin? Cannot Christ take away their lust?

Didn't Jesus forgive Magdalene while she touched and handled Him but the pharisees balked.

Why go half-way and "forgive" but not let anyone forget?

Personally I don't see a lot of difference between hiding them from the children in a local church (drawing everyone's attenion to them) and segregating them to a local church more conducive to their ability to worship.

For me it is a dilemma, that's the best I can say.

HankD

 

No, not even similar since pedophiles are not segregated in church. They are all worshipping together.

I think there is a huge difference. I don’t think you should draw attention to them in the local church.

 

But God said that we are on this earth, not in heaven. And on this earth, we are one in Christ. Trying to make it a kingdom issue with cobras is totally irrelevant.

You have just ruled out two groups of people that will not do that for. Not everyone is called to be a leader in the church. You must protect the flock, even the pedophiles. You seem to want to forget that.

Wayne, I seriously doubt whether this is true. God and his leadership has not said these things to you. There is no biblical basis for them. None whatsoever. I have not demanded you go against God. In fact, I have been adamant that God must be our standard rather than our own personal preferences. I assure you that I cannot deal with pedophiles. But God has called me to rise above my personal likes and dislikes and be a minister to everyone for whom Christ died. And he has called you to do the same thing.

What’s the untruth? In post #88, you said we will not be ministering to homosexuals, nor pedophiles. I simply said what you said. I didn’t say anything untrue. My point was about your avowed refusal to minister to people for whom Christ died, namely pedophiles and homosexuals. You said it, not me. I didn't make it up.

Where?

But I am challenging the biblical nature of your limitations. I believe they are sinful, self-imposed limitations that do not arise from biblical issues or biblical commands. God didn’t tell you to send sinners to someone else to deal with. He told you to deal with the sinners that he brings before you. Protecting the flock does not mean kicking out repentant sinners. If you have a pedophile who is not repentant, then by all means discipline them. Don’t let them around. If they are not willing to have the accountability and discipleship, then have nothing to do with them, and don’t send them to another church. But your limitations do not involve those kinds of things, based on what you are saying here.

First, you created a false dichotomy. Allowing repentant sinners to worship with us does not mean we cannot stand against their sin.

Second, I stood tonight before our congregation and relayed the basics of this conversation and declared that repentant pedophiles and homosexuals are welcome to worship in our church and that we will stand against their sin. We will do both, just as Christ did.

I don’t think I said I was required to speak anything to you, but I did tell our congregation.

So far, Wayne, you have given no biblical justification (and I emphasize biblical justification for that is the rule for the NT church) for why you will exclude from your church people for whom Christ died. If Christ lets them into his church, why do you exclude them from yours? Are you more holy than he is? On what basis do you say you should have higher standards than he has?

 

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Hi Wayne

Actually, I PM'd you, not emailed you. I just wanted to make sure everything was ok, and you verified that clearly for me through your response. May God bless you too

 

I haven't attempted to show a verse in support of something I don't believe. I have never argued that we should protect the rights of offenders over teh children. Not one time have I made that argument. The Bible declares that pastors should protect the flock. You are willing to protect part of the flock, excluding the members of the flock who are homosexual or pedophiles. I don't think you have any biblical grounds to stand on. And so far you have offered no support for your position that people for whom Christ died should not be ministered to in the church.

I believe children should be protected, and I have been clear about how they should be protected. No pedophile should ever be allowed in public teaching ministry. No pedophile should ever be allowed in a children's ministry, as a worker, chaperone, observer, anything. No pedophile should ever be allowed to linger around children, or children's ministry rooms. No pedophile should ever be without direct and straightforward accountability in teh church. No pedophile should ever be in the church without a deacon nearby who can accompany him whereever he goes. And no repentant pedophile should ever be denied fellowship in the local church. If he has victims in a particular church, he should make it right be confession and then find another biblical church where he can worship and grow, where the pastor will invest what is necessary. I don't know how to be any clearer on this.

Don't try to paint me as one willing to put children in danger. You know I have not said that. I have specifically talked about what we need to do to protect them.

They do me as well. But remember what Jesus is talking about there. You didn't quote the whole passage. Jesus uses the child as representative of the kind of faith that it takes to into the kingdom. He is talking about those who become as this little one (v. 4). He is talking about causing people who are childlike in their faith to stumble. Remember, when you use a passage of Scripture, look at what it actually says. It applies to children, certainly, but because children who exercise faith in Christ are just like adults who exercise faith in Christ. The adults have become "such as" this child. That is what Christ was talking about.

Now, having said that, I am 100% for protecting children. I will do nothing to put a child in danger. But the little ones who are repentant pedophiles must not be caused to stumble because they are treated unbiblically when they have repented. And that is what you are doing, I fear. Your treatment of them will cause them to stumble, and probably to leave the church and leave their faith. It would be better for you to be drowned with a millstone around your neck then for you to kick some repentant pedophile out of the church.

Again, I say, I can find no biblical warrant to refuse to minister to those for whom Christ died. If he saved them, then they are a part of the church.

 

A pastor friend DID find a legal way to allow parents to know. He went to the website for registered sex offenders, and printed them out for his county and the closest surrounding counties. He then posted the list on the bulletin board. If any of those people showed up, the parents had seen who he/she was and was careful around them with the kids. No one had to be confronted, and they were allowed to worship. IF they left after one or two services never to return, it was assumed that they were up to no good.That way they were able to hear the gospel.