Child of God....or Son of Chucky?

[Van]

Hi PreachTony, it is never a wise idea to support doctrine based on "God would not do this or that" i.e. saying something is so because of God's character, rather than scripture.

Scripture says we are punished for our deeds (misdeeds). If we have never committed any misdeeds, i.e. died before we knew right from wrong, no wrath would be piled up.

Now I know some misguided people believe in "eternal torment" but that view is based on assumption. Scripture says the smoke from their torment goes up forever and ever. But that might refer to the eternal consequence of being punished in Hades and Gehenna, i.e. eternal separation from God, rather than on-going punishment.

If a person does not go to be with Jesus, they are taken to Hades and then to the Great White Throne judgment after the second coming. That road leads to justice, you get exactly the punishment you deserve. No more and no less. The further you deviated from God’s standard, the more severe the punishment. For example, teachers that lead people astray (Mark 12:40). Two things are for certain, you will not like the punishment that God’s justice entails, and you will regret not turning your life over the Christ (Luke 16:19-31). Sin committed in ignorance will result in more tolerable judgment that willful sins (Matthew 11:21-24; Luke 12:47-48).

Just as the rewards in heaven will vary according to the judgment of God, I believe the punishment in Hades and Gehenna will vary according to the justice of God. Aborted babies will get justice. Brain damaged people will get justice. And those who are without excuse will get justice. Thus I believe those that die before knowing right from wrong will rest in peace, never suffering, without conscious awareness. But as I said, the Bible only leaves this view as a possibility, but it is consistent with all scripture, the Bible does not preclude this view.

 

[Van]

The Judgments of God

If you study the judgments presented in scripture, it is difficult to fit them together into a consistent picture. That is why there are so many end times views and doctrines. What follows is my take, probably no more helpful than many other differing views.

Lets start with God’s judgment of Adam. Before Adam willfully sinned, he had a right relationship with God. After he sinned (on that very day) he was separated from God, hence he died spiritually. God’s judgment fell on Adam, and on all those “in Adam,” for by the sin of the one, the many (all mankind) were made sinners, separated from God and therefore in a sinful separated and corrupt state. So when we are conceived, we are condemned already, the result of God’s judgment against Adam. Now, praise God, some of those of fallen mankind, who hear the gospel and receive the gospel, and trust in Christ, are remove from being in Adam and are placed in Christ. This judgment of God, when He reckons or credits our faith as righteousness, is God having mercy on us. When we are placed in Christ we become “my sheep” and if we physically die before Christ comes in the air, our spirit immediately goes to be with Christ in paradise. If we are not in Christ, if we are still in Adam, when we physically die, our disembodied spirit goes to a temporary holding place called Hades, where the unsaved undergo torment as part of their just punishment for their misdeeds while physically alive. Following the Great White Throne Judgment, the rest of their punishment (torment) and destruction is carried out in the Lake of Fire.

Now lets turn to the scriptural description of what will happen on that day. The first problem is two different events are described as happening during the return of Christ. Christ returns in the air and all the believers existing at that time, those whose spirits are in paradise and those physically alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. This is the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous mentioned in John 5:29. Everyone who was “in Christ” spiritually, meets Christ bodily in the air. If this rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16) occurs before the end of the tribulation, then this group will be joined by the martyred saints of Revelation 20:4, which completes all the stages of the first resurrection unto life.

This whole group faces judgment as described in Luke 14:4. Paul described this event in 2 Timothy 4:8. I think this judgment of rewards is in view in Revelation 22:12. Loss of salvation is nowhere in view, even if someone has no rewards awarded, like a man escaping from the fire, he still has eternal life with God (1 Corinthians 3:15).

The next judgment, in my progressive dispensationalist view, is the judgment of the nations that occurs after the great tribulation and before the thousand-year reign. Everyone still living will be judged as to whether they are believers as demonstrated by their love for the body of Christ, whether Jew or Gentile. This goats and sheep judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46. The goats are consigned to Hades and the sheep enter the millennial kingdom with the rest of the resurrected body of Christ.

And then finally, at the end of the thousand year earthly reign, the final Great White Throne judgment of the lost will occur. This event is described in Revelation 20:11-15. All the folks that face this judgment will be eternally separated from God. This is second resurrection, the resurrection of the condemned, John 5:29. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord before they are tossed into the Lake of Fire where their body and soul will be tormented and destroyed. They will have no rest during their torment and the smoke from their torment will rise forever and ever, Revelation 14:11. I do not believe this passage supports the concept of eternal torment, rather torment for an indeterminate duration, but with the consequence (as symbolized by the smoke rising forever) is the eternal punishment of eternal separation from God.

 

[Jerome]

Not sure what this Chucky business is all about

Apparently John Owen didn't have an OP to reprove him:

You know whose Children we are by nature; children of Satan, and of the curse, or of wrath. By the Spirit we are put into another capacity, and are Adopted to be the children of God, inasmuch as by receiving the spirit of our Father, we become the children of our Father. Thence is he called [Rom. 8] v. 15. the Spirit of Adoption.

John Owen, Of Communion with God the Father (1657) p. 279

 

[Jerome]

Can someone explain who this Chucky guy is?

From R.C. Sproul's website:

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/lord-dead-and-living/

Yet there is a sense in which human beings, since the fall of Adam, have not belonged to the Lord. Having rejected our good God in Adam, the Lord allowed us to enslave ourselves to sin (John 8:34). Since that day, we come into the world not as our Creator’s beloved possession but as men and women who belong, in a sense, to another—Satan. Apart from His grace, we are children of the devil no less than the Pharisees were (vv. 39-47). We are by nature children of wrath unless God intervenes to make us His children, to bring us back into His blessed possession (Eph. 2:1-3).

Priceless.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Nobody is adopted by Satan into his family.

 

[Jerome]

And no less than William Perkins, in A Golden Chaine (Cambridge: John Legate, 1600), p. 441:

The second gift is regeneration, whereby a man of a limb of the devil is made a member of Christ, and of a child of Satan (whom every one of us by nature do as lively resemble as any man doth his own parent) is made the child of God.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Scripture describes the unsaved as "lost", not "children of satan".

 

[kyredneck]

'Lost sheep' become 'saved sheep' when they obey the gospel and come home to the Saviour.

 

[Thousand Hills]

'Lost sheep' become 'saved sheep' when they obey the gospel and come home to the Saviour.

Will Christ leave anything belonging to him lost?

 

[kyredneck]

IMO, He does/has/will shut the door to His rest as He sees fit.

 

[Rippon]

IMO, He does/has/will shut the door to His rest as He sees fit.

But see John 10, especially verse 16 for a more scriptural view.

 

[kyredneck]

But see Heb 3-4 for more scriptural view. Voice of preachers does not necessarily equate to the voice of the Son of God. Lots of sheep are driven away by preachers. See Ezek 34 for more scriptural view.

 

[kyredneck]

24 And the Lord`s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2

He does as He wills with His own.

 

[Yeshua1]

But see Heb 3-4 for more scriptural view. Voice of preachers does not necessarily equate to the voice of the Son of God. Lots of sheep are driven away by preachers. See Ezek 34 for more scriptural view.

We were once ALL in the kingdom of satan, enemies of God, without hope. lost, so how can we be lost sheep if God was never our father until saved by grace of God at the born again experience?

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon, "the Sad Plight and Sure Relief":

His text is Romans 5:6. You know, the scripture that says Christ died for the ungodly

there is a New Life for you—and a new heart for you; there is a New Birth for you, so complete you shall be no more a child of Satan, but a child of God! And that is to be had now!

And I'm still waiting on an explanation of who this "Chucky" is. Is it some kind of inside joke?

 

[Yeshua1]

Charles Spurgeon, "the Sad Plight and Sure Relief":

His text is Romans 5:6. You know, the scripture that says Christ died for the ungodly




And I'm still waiting on an explanation of who this "Chucky" is. Is it some kind of inside joke?

The doll Chuck, fom the movies!

And guess Spurgeon was not a good enough "calvinist" to be able to support his biblical position!

 

[convicted1]

Sheep are sheep and goats are goats.

The sheep are who Christ gave His life for, was raised for, ascended to the Father for. He tasted death for zero goats. In John 10...

--...the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth; vs 3

--... I am the door of the sheep; vs 7

--...the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep; vs 11

--...and my life I lay down for the sheep, vs 15

 

[convicted1]

This is Chucky...

 

[Yeshua1]

Sheep are sheep and goats are goats.

The sheep are who Christ gave His life for, was raised for, ascended to the Father for. He tasted death for zero goats. In John 10...

--...the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth; vs 3

--... I am the door of the sheep; vs 7

--...the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep; vs 11

--...and my life I lay down for the sheep, vs 15

Sheep implies were one time Gods, and then were lost, but as sinners, NONE were ver right with God until born again from above!

 

[convicted1]

Sheep implies were one time Gods, and then were lost, but as sinners, NONE were ver right with God until born again from above!

Christ came to save His lost sheep. They were always, and will always be, His sheep. We were children of disobedient, yes. TBS, we were like sheep having gone astray. But we were still His sheep, even **whilst** in rebellion...

**for you Brother SolaSaint**....LOL