Childlessness is rebellion against God

It is clear that God intended for us to have children. However I think it is difficult to make the point that it is a sin not to. Heading in that direction becomes convoluted with other issues such as how many to have, the use of birth control ie chemical or rythym, etc. I would leave this one between the individuals and God.

 

It's all her fault, actually. When we first started dating, I asked her if she thought I was too old for her. She said no, and for once I chose not to argue that point.

BTW, it was and is the first marriage for both of us.

And FTR, I was born when my mother was 39 and my dad was 46.

And I am the oldest child.

My late little brother was born when my mother was less than one month shy of 44, and my dad was already 51. My mother actually lived to 93, only a month shy of 94 and my brother went home to be with the Lord, as were both my parents, seven weeks shy of 51, only 11 months later.

Ed

 

You made some good arguments and while I won't respond to each point let me attempt to answer with this...

You suggest that 1(husband)+1(wife)+1(child)=3 and fits the definition of multiplying for there is now more than what we started with.

However, 1h+1w+1c eventually will be -1h-1w as the husband and wife turn to dust. This leaves 1h+1w+1c-1h-1w=1c and thus where there was two there is now one, what you describe as multiplying, I describe as subtraction for their will be fewer in the end then when begun.

As to your suggestion that you can multiply by making disciples, while noble, I do not believe that this is what God was commanding Adam, Noah and the other times where He tells His people to multiply. However, I can see some validity to it in that you would be laboring to create newly born spiritual creatures.

 

This I did not say. The scriptures say be fruitful and multiply, Christians are not multiplying. Good behavior gets good consequences, bad behavior gets bad consequences, this is a theme that is repeated throughout the Bible. My point relative to the Muslim issue was it is representative of a bad consequence. Be fruitful and multiply (good behavior) and there will be someone to speak with the enemy at the gate (good consequence), don't be fruitful and multiply (bad behavior) and prepare to be overrun by the heathen (bad consequence).

 

Well, this is a secondary issue/problem. If Christians were training their children up in the way they should go then they would not depart from it when they got old (Pro 22:6). However, Christians are typically leaving the training of their children to someone else and then they're surprised when their children take on the beliefs of the people they allow to train them.

 

Rufus, Bible-Boy stated my point better than I.

Moot point for us, anyhoo. Wife + I had two kiddo's, so in your book we might not be guilty of "multiplication," but we're a long way from "division or subtraction." :laugh:

Besides, medical issues upon munchkin #2's arrival permanently took care of childbearing possibilities. Everyone's fine...but barring the miraculous, everyone=2 parents + 2 kiddo's.

Peace :thumbs:

 

I pray you find your way off of that side.

 

2.1 births per couple is the generally accepted replacement level for a community.

Praise God for your two munchkins and the blessings of children.

I'd like to clarify something. On a micro level, I am not saying that a couple needs to have x number of children to not be sinning. I am saying that these matters should be left to God. As Annsni has argued quite well, God is the Creator of Life and He is responsible for the blessings of children. The problem, from my perspective, is the heart and the numbers taken on a macro level is an indicator of the condition of the heart of Christianity. When narcissism and unnatural affections start infecting couples, then there is a problem and our choices (read contraceptives, provalactics etc) to not maintain a replacement birth rate will lead and has lead to bad consequences.

 

I would like to see a how a .1 birth happens

 

That's funny...

I notice you did not address the concerns I raised over your various definitions/interpretations of the term multiply, but that you just want to insist that my line of thinking happens to be wrong witout dealing with the issues.:tonofbricks:

 

That passage is not some kind of guarantee that Christian parents can do everything biblically right in their child rearing and that their kids will become Christians who in turn do everything biblically right in their child rearing and those kids will become Christians and so on and so on...

If I can produce just one Christian family (and I can) that did everything biblically right in their child rearing and one of their children (an adult now) has never professed saving faith in Christ, then your theory/interpretation of that passage is proven incorrect. Don't you know any Christian families in this same situation? To say otherwise (that your theory/interpretation is correct) and to have such an example would mean that the Word of God is incorrect. I'm not willing to go down that road are you? The passage you are referencing is a Proverb--a general truth or what some call a truism. It is not stated as a promise from the Lord and is not a guarantee from God.

 

I thought I had. Your line of thinking says 1+1+1=3 and that this represents an increase but the actual equation is (1+1)+(1)-(1)-(1)=1. I'm not insisting that you are wrong, just insisting that I am right . However, I am open to hearing your perspective on it, I will endevor to address any specific issues that you believe I have not addressed and I will respect you enough to not call your side of the argument "rediculous".

 

No.

The road I go down is whatever God's word says is truth. When He says...

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." - Proverbs 22:6​

...I'm taking that to the bank as an ironclad absolute.

 

I'm not saying that God's Word is not true. I am saying that that passage is not a guarantee to you or me that our kids will with 100% certainty grow up to be come born-again Christians.

Now would you address some of the points I have raised and the questions I have asked you rather simply retorting that your position is correct?

Do you know of a single Christian family that has done everything in correct biblical fashion in their child rearing and had one or more of their children never profess saving faith in Christ? Or were you responding "no" to this question in your above post?

 

The passage is a command to...

"Train up a child in the way he should go"​

...if you do this, then...

"When he is old, he will not depart from it."​

There is no exception stated, it's an absolute. If there is a possibility that one can train up a child in the way he should go and the child will depart from it later, then the passage is not true.

Forgive my slowness, what specifically are you asking for?

Yes, I said no.

 

How far do you carry it, though? If a couple can't have children, are they sinning? If a couple loses a child, as my wife and I did, are they sinning? I'm sure that's not what this argument is about. Because if someone is saying that, I'm going to be very disappointed... "Baptist pope" or not.

 

That is to misunderstand the genre of a Proverb. Proverbs then work just as proverbs today do. They are general principles of life, not ironclad guarantees.

For an example, I just typed in a random verse with no idea of what verse would pop up. Here it is:

Proverbs 12:13 An evil man is ensnared by the transgression of his lips, But the righteous will escape from trouble.

Is this always true? No, sometimes the righteous are persecuted and have trouble (cf. Psa 73). Sometimes they even die for their faith (Heb 11:37-39). Sometimes the evil men lie and get away with it.

So I would work on your hermeneutic here lest you make God out to be a liar.

 

It's not an absolute. If it was, you'd be taking away the free will and choice of the child-later-adult. Your reasoning suggests that if you give this child the instruction expected here, he will always come back to it. While I believe this is most often the case, I think to say it will happen EVERY TIME is doubtful.

 

The first hermeneutical mistake that you are making and what is driving you away from the proper interpretation here is that you are assuming that the Proverb is a command. It is not a command it is advice from a father to his son. He is stating a general truth and it contains no guarantee to you or me that our children will with 100% certainty become Christians.

For you to address the issues and questions I raised regarding the definition of multiply. Specifically this:

So... of the 42 uses of the word there are at least two possible definitions according to you.

1. To increase in number

2. Reward.

However, my original question about a married couple having one child and no more fits the first definition that you offer here because the two have now increased their number to three. However, in your previous post you suggested that multiply had to mean something more than having just one child because the biblical definition:

So in this definition you have put extra parameters causing it to mean that it must sustain and increase the population. Thus, there is a contradiction between the first definition you offered and the second definition you demonstrated with biblical references. In the definition offered in this quoted post multiply simply means to increase in number.

Are there other passage where multiply is used and other meanings are derived from the text? There must be because you offered a second definition meaning "reward." However, according to my Strong's Concordance there are multiple definitions for multiply including: "to increase (in whatever respect), abundance, be in authority, bring up, continue, enlarge, excel, exceeding(ly), be full of, (be, make) great, grow up, heap, increase, be long, (be, give, have, make, use) many (a time), (any, be, give, give the, have) more (in number), ask, be, be so, gather, over, take, yield) much (greater, more), (make to) multiply, nourish, plenty, process [of time], sore, store, thoroughly, very."

So the answer to my question is not as simple as you have suggested in two previous posts. I don't want to go into a whole big debate about hermeneutics and proper biblical interpretation here. Suffice it to say that according to the basic definition of multiply that you offered above (to increase in number) a married couple that has one child and no more has met the requirement to increase in number.

Sorry, but it seems that the "biblical definition" that you initially offered was/is indeed an interpretation of what someone said multiply means (based on your second offering of two possible definitions and what Strong's reveals regarding the full range of possible definitions for the word).

The better question for us to be considering here is what did God intend when He first told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth? What was His purpose in commanding them to do this? I would argue that God had way more in mind than simply populating the earth. I would argue that His ultimate goal was for Adam and Eve (and their descendants) to make His name famous among all the peoples of the earth so that He would receive the worship of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation for His own glory (Rev. 5). Now if this idea has any merit then my wife and I can multiply ourselves infinitely more times over by making disciples who in turn make other disciples, who in turn make other disciples, and so on and so on; rather than by trying to accomplish this by simple procreation no matter how many children we have.

Okay, sorry. I did not know what you were saying "no" to in that other post. However, because you, in your limited personal experience, do not know a Christian family where that situation has happened does not negate the fact that it does happen. Case in point: My own family. I have a brother (one of 5 kids) that as far as any of us knows has never professed saving faith in Christ. Additionally, my best friend here in seminary has two kids. We have been here at school together for nearly 10 years. We both had to complete our undergraduate degrees and then do our master's degrees (btw, I'm graduating in May PRAISE THE LORD!). Anyway, his eldest son (now an adult) has never professed saving faith in Christ. In both cases I am intimately aware of the Christian parenting that has taken place in the home, yet neither of these two men have become Christians. How do you explain that in light of your insistence that the Proverb guarantees truly born-again Christian children for Christian parents that practice biblical child rearing?