China - threat?

[fromtheright]

How should we approach China in terms of strategy/diplomacy/trade, etc.? There seem to be two general camps: (1) those who argue that by developing a trade relationship, we might assist in an inevitable democratization, that we should not be distracted by Taiwan and should encourage Taiwan to be compliant, quiet and non provocative in their dealings with the PRC and (2) those who argue that China is a growing threat in at least that region, that they are a proliferation threat to rogue regimes. I find myself in the latter camp and am curious of the views of others here.

 

[OldRegular]

China will displace the United States as the world power and we are helping them do it.

 

[fromtheright]

OR,

I'm not sure they will displace us as THE world power but: (1) they are sure moving in that direction and I think that they may have it as a long range goal (those who think that just because the U.S. doesn't think in terms of decades ahead should not make the mistake of thinking that the Chinese don't) and (2) I do believe they seek to replace us as the dominant power in the Pacific. For any here who might argue so what, that doesn't portend well for the security of others in that region. It seems to me there are two "so what" camps: (a) those who might argue that the Chinese "are big boys too" and are entitled to seek such a relative power position and (b) the isolationists here who argue that until they attack us they are and should be none of our concern.

 

[elijah_lives]

Here's my view, for what it's worth. China is a HUGE threat, both economically and militarily. My 13-year old daughter, at my request, calculates that at current growth trends, China's economy will surpass ours in roughly 20-23 years. That in itself is alarming to me, because so far, China has engaged in massive collusion within industry groups to dump products on world-wide markets to gain market share, and then price-fixing to lock in monopolistic profits. They seem to also have little concept of intellectual property rights.

Cooperation with Chinese-government demands to restrict freedom, as seen in the recent actions of Yahoo, Google, and Microsoft, contributes to the weakening of dissent in China, and is outrageous to me.

Their policies regarding environmental destruction are causing massive damage to the environment, completely ignored by the vocal "environmentalists" of the West.

China is using access to the free-markets of the West to gain equipment, knowledge, and skill to modernize their armed forces, to our future detriment.

Militarily, they are building up at an alarming rate, clearly aimed at firstly intimidating allies of Taiwan, then physically seizing control of Taiwan at a time of their choosing. Their intent is to displace American power in the Pacific rim, and to spread their influence to and through other potential enemies of the U.S., such as Iran and Venezuela.

Their refusal to consider any future sanctions on Iran by the Security Council gives that country a strengthened hand in dealing with western opposition to Iran's nuclear weapons program, and enhances China's balance of power role with defusing North Korea, as well.

Capitalistic vehicles will not subdue the Communists in China, as some people have expressly wished: Instead, it is aiding and abetting an enemy of ours, making dealing with them in the future nearly impossible. I don't think even MAD will deter them, because they are large enough to think that a nuclear exchange with us could be survivable, but the threat of a nuclear strike on us could easily intimidate us out of conventional military action in defense of Taiwan, SK, and Japan.

How all of this fits into the Bible, I am uncertain. One of the reasons why I desire a long life (I am 44) is to witness the outcome of this conflict in the making, to satisfy my own curiousity.

(Sorry, my spelling is atrocious!)

 

[fromtheright]

I invite readers to check out the following:

A STUDY of Chinese naval modernization (I have a little bias on the focus).

The 2005 REPORT of the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission.

The 2005 DOD report on The Military Power of the People’s Republic of China 2005 (can Google it, I couldn't get hold of the link).

 

[hillclimber]

In Rev. it speaks of a 200 million man army marching to war against Israel. China just in the last couple years reached a standing Army of ...200 million men. And we are financing it with our trade dollars.

 

[LadyEagle]

Yep. But there are those here who believe that is fine. And so do our leaders from both parties.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
In Rev. it speaks of a 200 million man army marching to war against Israel. China just in the last couple years reached a standing Army of ...200 million men. And we are financing it with our trade dollars.

Not to change the subject of the OP but I believe you are reading something into the text [namely Israel] that is not there.

 

[saturneptune]

from the right,
China is as big of threat today as they were in the 50s and 60s when we grew up. They are nicer about it, but they still feel the same way. Their economy is growing stronger by the year. If war broke out over Tiawan, how do you think we could do in a land war against China, especially now? I think long range it is the biggest threat this country faces.

 

[fromtheright]

SN,

China is as big of threat today as they were in the 50s and 60s when we grew up. They are nicer about it, but they still feel the same way. Their economy is growing stronger by the year. If war broke out over Tiawan, how do you think we could do in a land war against China, especially now? I think long range it is the biggest threat this country faces.

IMO, they're a bigger threat now than then. Their alliance with the USSR broke up in 1959 but they have begun to build those ties again and China is now importing weapons and weapons designs from Russia. They recently held joint military exercises ostensibly aimed at terrorism but the open secret is that they were aimed at U.S. forces in the Pacific and included Russian strategic bombers and missiles. China is also a threat, with Russia, for its proliferation of WMD and missile technology to rogue states, including Iran. Strengthening such regimes also helps tie the U.S. down in facing those additional threats. They are rapidly building a Navy, again including Russian submarines and destroyers. With their $1.5 trillion trade surplus, they are able to buy a lot.

IMO, a land war is not what we would be involved in with Taiwan. One of their generals several years ago made the not-so veiled threat that we would not exchange Los Angeles for Taiwan. One scenario I've seen that seems realistic is that if they begin threatening Taiwan and draw an aircraft carrier into the theater, they may be willing to risk whether we would escalate if they sink one of our carriers. What I am worried about is their missile and naval technology. They have sophisticated anti-ship missiles aboard the Sovremmeny destroyers, missiles they are also placing aboard smaller, less expensive platforms. They have enough nukes to threaten U.S. bases in the area. China officially declared the U.S. its main enemy in 1990 after the Soviet Union's collapse meant they no longer needed the U.S. to counterblance the Soviet Union.

 

[saturneptune]

Agreed with your comments. Just your opinion, how would the US do in any land war with China considering the present state of our military and overseas deployments?

 

[JamesBell]

China is a huge threat, but there is nothing we can do about it. The amount of dollars that China is holding precludes us from taking any action to slow their growth. They could flood the market with t-bills, causing the dollar to crash. We would then be left in a position much like pre-war Germany where it would take thousands of US dollars to buy even a loaf of bread.

This being the case, we have to work as a partner with China. We know they are a threat, will soon be a second "super power" and may be trying to replace the U.S. as the single world power. We just have to rely on the strengthr of our people to ensure that the US keeps pace.

 

[fromtheright]

SN,

As to a landwar, I wouldn't be optimistic with the size of their army but there would be several unknowns that would have to be factored in:

--I don't know how they are with maneuver warfare involving tanks and helos. I'm not familiar enough with their land forces even to know what tanks they have.
--where it would be fought. I don't think there is any likelihood of us invading China, which would be an extremely foolish move anyway.
--whether it would go nuke. I could see the Chinese using tactical nukes, but again that depends on the theater. I think they envision taking Taiwan without a great deal of destruction, or at least that that is their hope as they wish to keep it as intact as possible.

I read the 2004 DoD report on China's military power but haven't read the 2005 report. I guess I should read it to be able to better answer your question. Again, though, my short answer is that I don't envision a land war with China but rather, if there is a war with them it will almost certainly be a naval war but I believe they will seek to keep us out of the theater by having us ask ourselves whether we are willing to risk destruction of American cities by Chinese nukes to save Taiwan. If Taiwan falls, however, American credibility in the Pacific will collapse and Pacific nations will begin accommodating themselves to Chinese power.

 

[Bunyon]

We will end up in a another arms race, but this time we will actally be financing their arms buildup by importing their porducts.

 

[LadyEagle]

We already have been, bunyon, for years. You can thank both the Democrats and Republicans. Congress and Bush gave China Permanent Normal Trade Relations status in January 2002. Up until that maneuver, China was subject to some scrutiny as far as their human rights abuses and whether or not to renew trade agreements with them. Once Permanent relations were established, that went out the window.

Also in the equation is Japan. Some Chinese still harbor resentment towards Japan and the atrocities committed during WW2. The Western powers gave Japan a pass on that and that may still be a bone of contention. Read up on it. When all is said and done, South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan and others may eventually fall to China. There are Chinese missles pointed at US cities as we speak (have been for years) and we can thank the Clinton administration for allowing them to have the wonderful technology for the GPS that guarantees accuracy in missle coordinates. Add to that, the Chinese have shared such technology with Iran now.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/8/12/161533.shtml

And we can thank Jimmy Carter for giving the Panama Canal away which was built by American tax dollars. Guess who controls the Panama Canal now? You probably already know. China.

These are only a few of the reasons I continue to say there is little difference between Republican or Democratic Administrations and Congresses - they are ALL corrupt and have sold American taxpayers AND the Constitution down the river for decades.

 

[Bunyon]

It was Clinton who granted most favor trading status. Most likely as a favor to his home state cronie, Sam Walton. His wife was on the board. Walmarts stock really started to sag, and then, presto chango, cheap imports from China and Wal-mart became the largest cooperation in the world.

 

[LadyEagle]

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, acting under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, including but not limited to sections 101(a)(2) and 102(a) of Public Law 106-286, 114 Stat. 881, do hereby proclaim that:

(1) Nondiscriminatory treatment (normal trade relations treatment) shall be extended to the products of China; and

(2) The extension of nondiscriminatory treatment to the products of China shall be effective as of January 1, 2002.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011227-1.html

 

[LadyEagle]

Interesting read:

http://www.apfn.org/THEWINDS/archive/economy/china5-97.html

 

[JGrubbs]

The Conservative Caucus has some sections of their site devoted to the Red China issue:

http://www.conservativeusa.org/redchina.htm
http://www.conservativeusa.org/redchina-missile.htm
http://www.conservativeusa.org/DefendFromChina.htm
http://www.conservativeusa.org/ChinaTripReport.htm
http://www.conservativeusa.org/olympics.htm

The problem is that China owns 1/3 of our national debt, and over half of the products you find in most stores are "Made in China". In 2008 China is introducing their first line of cars to the US market, these cars will be half the price of any car made in the USA.

Red China is working for the long term goal of becoming the largest Superpower and they don't care how long it takes. I am against MFN status for any nation that abuses human rights like China does!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
Most likely as a favor to his home state cronie, Sam Walton.

Sam Walton was a great American. Wal-Mart would be a much better company if he was still running it.

He died on April 6, 1992. Bill Clinton was several months away from winning the presidency at that time.

You also might find this to be interesting:

"In 1985, Sam Walton began a program to stem the 'tide of communism' in Central America by promoting capitalism and privatization. His efforts included funding scholarship programs to bring Central American students to Christian universities in the United States. He hoped that exposure to American capitalism and Protestant values would dissuade them from becoming involved in the communist movements."

- Source