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Choose which you believe to be right
- Thread starter Wes Outwest
- Start date
THERS AS YOU'D HAVE THEM DO TO YOU!Wes Outwest
New Member
You stay in the dark because you want to stay in the dark.
The light of truth has been given many thousands of times, but you refuse to accept it. Don't look to blame anyone else for you own self imposed darkness!
The light of truth has been given many thousands of times, but you refuse to accept it. Don't look to blame anyone else for you own self imposed darkness!
Stop and stay a while!
So, your assumption is that if we are commanded to do something then we must be able to do it, right? So, if I show you one exception to that rule then your rule is no longer trustworthy, and you will need to make your case by some other argument.
"You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (Matt 5:48) If your rule is correct, then every person must be able to be perfect, just as God is perfect. Yet I doubt that you can identify even one, save Christ, who is able to keep that command. The presence of a commandment does not imply the ability to obey that commandment. So, your argument is fallacious and you need to prove ability some other way, if you can.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Whatever,
Are you entirely sure that is what is being said! Because God made man, due to man's sins, prone to disobedience, sealed it into man as man's "sin nature", and JESUS knew that, what do you suppose the Christ might truly be saying?
Wes Outwest
New Member
Well if I cannot be a tempter, what can I be?
Are you entirely sure that is what is being said! Because God made man, due to man's sins, prone to disobedience, sealed it into man as man's "sin nature", and JESUS knew that, what do you suppose the Christ might truly be saying? </font>[/QUOTE]Well, yes, that's exactly what Jesus said. I suppose He didn't mean what He said?
Ben Elohim
New Member
One must die with Christ before one is born again. Mortal human beings are quite capable of dying. God does the rest when he raises us up anew. In Calvinism however, one does not die with Christ prior to new birth but is simply "regenerated."
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."
Ben Elohim
New Member
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." </font>[/QUOTE]Very predictable.
They were dead IN THEIR TREPASSES. The old man is a man of FLESH and an object of wrath. FLESH is MORTAL (DEAD by itself) and our sins are a result of the FLESH, our human NATURE.
Gotta coupla questions ferya:
1. Why would anyone who is already dead need to die with Christ before they are raised up with Christ?
2. Paul says believers are people who died with Christ and were then raised up with him. How did you go about dying with Christ?
3. Notice that in 1 John chapter 5 there is a sin that leads to death. Would you care to explain this death?
I'm really not sure what you are getting at. Yes, they (we) were dead in their (our) trespasses, and God made them (us) alive. That the point.
Ask Paul. After he was born again he said "I am crucified with Christ" - not "was", but "am". Why would anybody who is already raised in Christ still be crucified?
Paul also said "now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him." What? We aren't alive already?
Paul also says that we were dead in our trespasses, and that God raised us with the same power by which He raised Christ. Which Paul should we believe?
Don't confuse what Paul says of believers (dead to the world, alive with Christ) with what he says of unbelievers (dead in sin, living according to Satan's will, needing new birth).
Physical death - not all sins lead to physical death, but some do.
Ben Elohim
New Member
You are kidding right? Think about it man. If you were once crucified dead you are still crucified. If I was killed I am killed. Methinks you were trying to contrive but it didn't work ferya.
And your argument is here is nothing but a contrivance. Paul also says we HAVE DIED with Christ in baptism. Why would a dead man need to die?
Uh huh. And what do you propose that died and what do you propose that became alive? This will be your undoing.
Well I guess we believe whichever one you like.
The only thing that is confused here is your reply. In order to be dead to the world one would need to die to the world.
And moreover, you eisegetically read the notion into the bible that "dead in sin" means "can't believe the gospel message" in order to suit your theology and you do so without any warrant whatsoever. So where is your evidence what "dead in sin" actually means?
Where is your evidence that this is what THIS passage means? Did you arrive at an interpretation from the context or did you arrive at an interpretation that is required to suit your creedal doctrines? I know the answer but it would be interesting to see you explain.
It's in the same passage where Paul says that God made us alive with Christ, and that it was not our doing, but the gift of God. It's also in John 1 where John says that those born again were not born of the will of man, but of God. Of course, since you approach every passage of Scripture as if you had no doctrinal stance at all I'm sure you would be happy to provide me with the correct interpretation.
Where is your evidence that this is what THIS passage means? Did you arrive at an interpretation from the context or did you arrive at an interpretation that is required to suit your creedal doctrines? I know the answer but it would be interesting to see you explain. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Context - but of course I could be wrong. Since you couldn't possibly be wrong, perhaps you'll help me out here too.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
God did indeed make us alive in Christ - there's no way we could do it ourselves. We couldn't do it based upon we wanted. Thanks be to God who allowed us to accept that gift! (Even Arminians understand that they couldn't be alive in Christ without the work of the cross!)
Ben Elohim
New Member
I didn't ask you where the passage was located. I asked you where one would find your evidence that "dead in sin" means what you want it to mean. You have not answered this question.
I didn't ask you where the passage was located. I asked you where one would find your evidence that "dead in sin" means what you want it to mean. You have not answered this question. </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't tell you where the passage was located, either. And I did answer your question. You can look at the evidence and say "that's not evidence" but that doesn't make the evidence not evidence.
Now, since you approach every passage of Scripture as if you had no doctrinal stance at all I'm sure you would be happy to provide me with the correct interpretation of Eph. 2:1-10.