Choose ye this day whom ye will serve

[Silverhair]

It is clear english, yet you dont seem to understand it.

Lets make this simple for you, then perhaps you will get it.

There is an apple, an orange, and a pear.

If you do not want the apple then you can have the orange or the pear.
If you do not want the orange you then can have the apple or the pear
If you do not want the pear then you can have the apple or the orange

If you do not want to serve God then you can serve the gods of your fathers or the gods of the Amorites

choose for yourselves
serve the LORD
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD
the gods which your fathers served
the gods of the Amorites

If you can not see the three options presented
God
the old gods
the Amorite gods
then you are being willfully blind.

 

[Brightfame52]

Lets make this simple for you, then perhaps you will get it.

There is an apple, an orange, and a pear.

If you do not want the apple then you can have the orange or the pear.
If you do not want the orange you then can have the apple or the pear
If you do not want the pear then you can have the apple or the orange

If you do not want to serve God then you can serve the gods of your fathers or the gods of the Amorites

choose for yourselves
serve the LORD
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD
the gods which your fathers served
the gods of the Amorites

If you can not see the three options presented
God
the old gods
the Amorite gods
then you are being willfully blind.

Nothing has changed

 

[AustinC]

read the rest of the thread before you jump in. As for your gift of faith then your saying that God condemns millions, no billions to hell because He did not give them the gift of faith. You really do work hard at destroying the character of God don't you.

First, you never address the fact that Joshua is dealing with a covenant question, not a salvation question.
Second, all humans are in open rebellion against God. He is under no obligation to graciously gift us anything...and he still is 100% justified in condemning us all. Therefore your conclusion is all wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing has changed

What, was that to complicated for you to understand. And you try to teach others. You can not even understand simple English.

 

[Reformed1689]

then your saying that God condemns millions, no billions to hell because He did not give them the gift of faith.

Actually that is what God said.

 

[Silverhair]

First, you never address the fact that Joshua is dealing with a covenant question, not a salvation question.
Second, all humans are in open rebellion against God. He is under no obligation to graciously gift us anything...and he still is 100% justified in condemning us all. Therefore your conclusion is all wrong.

Your the one that started to deal with salvation. Do men sin YES. Has God given man a way to be saved, YES. Do you deny the sovereignty of God, YES.

Your calvimist theory of salvation is not biblical but you will hold to it I am sure. It is your theology that requires God to pick out a select few when He could have picked all. You have to hope that you really are part of the select group as you have no way of knowing do you. He may just be playing a game with you because it is not even your faith is it?

All your saying is that you do not trust that God has given man the intelligence to decide if they want to believe the gospel message. And you expect us to trust that you now have the intelligence to exegete the bible correctly.

 

[Silverhair]

Actually that is what God said.

So you have finally said the truth about your view of God. Calvinism does make Him the moral monster that we have been telling you that it does. And all this time you have been denying it. Well at last you are starting to see the truth.

Biblical text

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Calvinist version

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because God has not given them the faith to believe in the name of His only begotten Son of God.

 

[Reformed1689]

So you have finally said the truth about your view of God. Calvinism does make Him the moral monster that we have been telling you that it does. And all this time you have been denying it. Well at last you are starting to see the truth.

I've always said God chooses some and not others so I don't know what you are on about.

 

[Silverhair]

I've always said God chooses some and not others so I don't know what you are on about.

Like I said the theology that you hold has God condemn billions just because He can, not because they reject Him. You said that God does not give them the faith to be saved in other words man does not reject God because he wants to he rejects God because he has no other choice. Seems to me like your version of God is not really that just is He.

 

[AustinC]

Like I said the theology that you hold has God condemn billions just because He can, not because they reject Him.

What you state above is completely false.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Everyone is condemned by their own sin. Human rebellion against their Creator condemns us.
Do you reject this theology, Silverhair?

You said that God does not give them the faith to be saved in other words man does not reject God because he wants to he rejects God because he has no other choice.

Here, you show your twisted thinking to everyone.
What you do here is...you blame God and you treat sin as though it were holy.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Seems to me like your version of God is not really that just is He.

If Jesus had not substituted his holy life in sacrifice for those whom the Father has given to him, then God would be unjust in saving anyone. Justice would require that 100% of humans spend eternity in hell.
Silverhair, are you a sinner or are you so personally holy that God would be wrong to condemn you?

Silverhair, I read what you write and it is clear that you are accusing God in a backhanded manner. You have the mindset that humans aren't really that bad. Indeed, it seems you think humans are quite swell and God must be evil if humans aren't the ones who save themselves.
Ultimately, your theology is perverted.

 

[Silverhair]

What you state above is completely false.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Everyone is condemned by their own sin. Human rebellion against their Creator condemns us.
Do you reject this theology, Silverhair?

Your response just shows me that you really do not read do you. Do all sin YES That is what condemns man but, and this you keep avoiding, it is your theology that I have the problem with. God has given all men the ability to choose either to trust in or reject Christ Jesus. Your theology takes that away.

Here, you show your twisted thinking to everyone.
What you do here is...you blame God and you treat sin as though it were holy.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Remember it is your theology that says He only gives faith so as to be saved to a select group. If He does not allow man the ability to be saved, via this given faith, then He is condemning them just because He can. Your theology makes God the unjust God. That is on calvinism and you as you support it.
The God that I worship loves His creation and has provided the way and means of salvation to all. Even though all have sinned He has not left us without a way of knowing Christ Jesus for our salvation. Why you deny the scriptures I do not know but it is clear that you do.

If Jesus had not substituted his holy life in sacrifice for those whom the Father has given to him, then God would be unjust in saving anyone. Justice would require that 100% of humans spend eternity in hell.
Silverhair, are you a sinner or are you so personally holy that God would be wrong to condemn you?

Silverhair, I read what you write and it is clear that you are accusing God in a backhanded manner. You have the mindset that humans aren't really that bad. Indeed, it seems you think humans are quite swell and God must be evil if humans aren't the ones who save themselves.
Ultimately, your theology is perverted.

I do not accuse God in any way. What I do is accuse your errant theology of making God unjust and a moral monster. Your anger at me should be directed to those that have misled you into thinking that calvimism is true.

Oh I know how bad humans are but I also know how good God is. I find it really sad that you are so fixated on defending calvinism that you can not see past the errors. You lash out at anyone that points out the errors and instead of learning from those that would attempt to help you instead you throw unfounded accusations at them.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your response just shows me that you really do not read do you. Do all sin YES That is what condemns man but, and this you keep avoiding, it is your theology that I have the problem with. God has given all men the ability to choose either to trust in or reject Christ Jesus. Your theology takes that away.



Remember it is your theology that says He only gives faith so as to be saved to a select group. If He does not allow man the ability to be saved, via this given faith, then He is condemning them just because He can. Your theology makes God the unjust God. That is on calvinism and you as you support it.
The God that I worship loves His creation and has provided the way and means of salvation to all. Even though all have sinned He has not left us without a way of knowing Christ Jesus for our salvation. Why you deny the scriptures I do not know but it is clear that you do.




I do not accuse God in any way. What I do is accuse your errant theology of making God unjust and a moral monster. Your anger at me should be directed to those that have misled you into thinking that calvimism is true.

Oh I know how bad humans are but I also know how good God is. I find it really sad that you are so fixated on defending calvinism that you can not see past the errors. You lash out at anyone that points out the errors and instead of learning from those that would attempt to help you instead you throw unfounded accusations at them.

How many different strawman arguments can there be in one single post? This must be some sort of record....

 

[AustinC]

God has given all men the ability to choose either to trust in or reject Christ Jesus. Your theology takes that away.

Since you assert a universal ability, you are responsible to prove your assertion. I have shown you from Romans 1 and Romans 3 that you are wrong, but since you will not accept scripture, and you make a universal "all" statement, it is you who must prove your statement.

Now, prove your statement. If only one person in all history cannot choose to reject or accept Christ Jesus...it proves you wrong.

 

[AustinC]

Remember it is your theology that says He only gives faith so as to be saved to a select group. If He does not allow man the ability to be saved, via this given faith, then He is condemning them just because He can.

He is condemning people because they have sinned against him. God is just in such condemnation, just as a law judge is just in condemning a proven law breaker.

Giving anyone faith is an AMAZING act of grace on God's part.

But, here you are, once again accusing God of being unfair and unjust.

 

[Silverhair]

How many different strawman arguments can there be in one single post? This must be some sort of record....

When I just use calvinisms own words how is that a strawman argument? Just because your have calvinist blinders on does not require that all wear them. What did I miss about your calvinist theology?

Does your theology allow man to have a real free will, NO
Does your theology require God to give you faith so you can believe, YES

Does God desire all to come to faith and be saved, YES
Does God save by His grace those that believe, YES
When we hear and believe the gospel message are we saved by God, YES

Austin wrote " Justice would require that 100% of humans spend eternity in hell." Do you agree with his understanding or do you believe the bible?

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Notice that those that trust in Christ Jesus are justified freely by His grace. Faith comes first.

 

[Silverhair]

Since you assert a universal ability, you are responsible to prove your assertion. I have shown you from Romans 1 and Romans 3 that you are wrong, but since you will not accept scripture, and you make a universal "all" statement, it is you who must prove your statement.

Now, prove your statement. If only one person in all history cannot choose to reject or accept Christ Jesus...it proves you wrong.

To be polite, That has got to be one of the dumbest comments I have seen come out of a calvinist, and I have seen some really dumb ones. It just shows that you do not really trust the word of God
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Are you saying that God would want all to be able to be saved but then would not make it possible for them to be? And we know that people do reject salvation so I guess that covers all.

You can always tell when calvinist are caught on their own hooks? They start coming up with really dumb or illogical comments.

Your assertion is just a strawman argument. Prove that God only wants to save the so called elect. If one person can be shown to be able to trust in Christ Jesus that proves calvinism is false.

Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Can you prove that the person that believes has been preselected, if you can not then calvinism is false. You can make the assertion that we have to be preselected but you can not prove that everyone who has been saved is or has been preselected to salvation. What we do know is that we are saved by the grace of God because of our faith:
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Silverhair]

He is condemning people because they have sinned against him. God is just in such condemnation, just as a law judge is just in condemning a proven law breaker.

Giving anyone faith is an AMAZING act of grace on God's part.

But, here you are, once again accusing God of being unfair and unjust.

All of us are sinners and none of us deserve salvation.

It is your calvinism that accuses God of being unfair and unjust. If faith were the gift you say it is and God could have given that gift to all of us sinners but instead decided to let the vast majority of humanity spend eternity in hell because He withheld the faith that would have saved them who do you think caused those people to be in hell?

Under calvinism those people are in hell because God did not gift them with faith. Under free will those people are in hell because they had the ability to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation and rejected it so the responsibility is theirs

 

[AustinC]

All of us are sinners and none of us deserve salvation.

It is your calvinism that accuses God of being unfair and unjust. If faith were the gift you say it is and God could have given that gift to all of us sinners but instead decided to let the vast majority of humanity spend eternity in hell because He withheld the faith that would have saved them who do you think caused those people to be in hell?

Under calvinism those people are in hell because God did not gift them with faith. Under free will those people are in hell because they had the ability to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation and rejected it so the responsibility is theirs

Sin.
Sin caused people to be in hell.
Under Calvinism, sin caused people to be in hell. Grace caused people to be saved and receive faith.

What you are doing, with your logic, is similar to saying:
People break the law, but the President has the power to pardon all people. The President doesn't pardon all people, therefore the President caused them to be in jail.

Do you have the capacity to see how utterly silly and stupid your thinking is and how little you actually comprehend what Calvinism teaches?

Just look at how badly you have botched it in the post you provided. You actually blame God. Wow. Are you so confused as to not see how badly you are missing the mark?

 

[Reformed1689]

When I just use calvinisms own words how is that a strawman argument? Just because your have calvinist blinders on does not require that all wear them. What did I miss about your calvinist theology?

Does your theology allow man to have a real free will, NO
Does your theology require God to give you faith so you can believe, YES

Does God desire all to come to faith and be saved, YES
Does God save by His grace those that believe, YES
When we hear and believe the gospel message are we saved by God, YES

Austin wrote " Justice would require that 100% of humans spend eternity in hell." Do you agree with his understanding or do you believe the bible?

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Notice that those that trust in Christ Jesus are justified freely by His grace. Faith comes first.

Except you don't use our words. You spin, twist and change them.

 

[Silverhair]

Sin.
Sin caused people to be in hell.
Under Calvinism, sin caused people to be in hell. Grace caused people to be saved and receive faith.

What you are doing, with your logic, is similar to saying:
People break the law, but the President has the power to pardon all people. The President doesn't pardon all people, therefore the President caused them to be in jail.

Do you have the capacity to see how utterly silly and stupid your thinking is and how little you actually comprehend what Calvinism teaches?

Just look at how badly you have botched it in the post you provided. You actually blame God. Wow. Are you so confused as to not see how badly you are missing the mark?

Do you not have the capacity to see that your TULIP is utterly silly and stupid and how little you actually comprehend what Calvinism teaches? Read your TULIP with an open mind.

Under Calvinism

God unconditionally chooses to only save some, but not all,
God limits the atonement of Christs’ death to that select few and
God gives irresistible grace to those that are the fortunate elect.
If you do not meet any of these conditions then you are doomed from the start.

Calvinism says this brings glory to God. How? Does this show justice? NO. What is shows is raw despotic power which is just the opposite of what that bible tells us about God.

God is love 1Jn 4:8 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Ti 2:4 so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:26