Choose ye this day whom ye will serve

[Silverhair]

Just so we're clear. You are accusing me of teaching salvation by works, just as the Judaizers. Correct?
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
~ Galatians 1:6-8

This accusation is curious since you have openly proclaimed that humans don't need to hear the gospel to be saved, that they can be saved by observing nature alone. You assert this in defiance of Romans 1, yet now you accuse me of not teaching the gospel of grace alone.
Silverhair, in this accusation you play the role of an evil person.


Here, I stand on God's precious word.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This passage is clear on its own, but just to remind you that Jesus authors our faith, I share Hebrews 12:2 as well.
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.


Do you acknowledge that you didn't even quote a full sentence? Let's look at the whole sentence.
Romans 3:21-25
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

It's a gift, Silverhair.


Yep, no works required.
Remember the above passage,
"justified by his grace as a gift"?


Wonderful passage. Note that our justification is by grace as a gift...which means faith is a gift of God, coming after salvation.
Silverhair, do you not believe someone must be saved before they can be justified? Or do you think an unsaved person can have their own faith and thus justify themselves without ever being saved?
Does salvation come before justification?


Does the Spirit of God come on a person before salvation or after salvation?
Do you acknowledge that Paul is writing to people who are already saved?


Again, can a person have faith and be justified without first being saved by grace?


I notice that what you just said is the gospel of works. That is a common thread I see in your posts.

The gospel is this:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
~ Ephesians 2:4-7

Notice the difference.
You preach that you are saved because you chose to believe, which caused God to save you. ("we are saved by God because we believe")

I preach that God chose to save us by grace alone, which caused us to have faith and believe.

Did Paul lie when he wrote to the Ephesians and told them the order salutis?

Silverhair, thank you for your post. Any true believer in Christ can see how you have mislead in your quoting of scripture.

No I am saying you teach a gospel contrary to the one Paul preached

You have constantly claimed that people are saved before they believe, remember according to you God gives them faith after they are saved. Your words Austin “I preach that God chose to save us by grace alone, which caused us to have faith and believe.” So according to you people do not even have to trust in Him before they are saved. That is not biblical and is a false gospel. You try to use Eph 2:4-7 to support your view but sorry it does not. All you have to do is read one more verse Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Austin you have made a false claim, nice way of saying you lied, show me the post where I said “that they can be saved by observing nature alone.” What I said is the people in closed countries can and have come to know Christ with out ever hearing the gospel message.


How Muslims are finding Jesus without Christians in North Africa
Islèm’s story
“When I was at the hospital,” she remembers, “there was a window and one night I asked God: ‘Why me? You had my mother deliver me as a baby and You let me live this life. It is not normal. Why did You create me? To get hurt, to lead such a life? If you are God, show how glorious You are, who You are. Either I die or if you have something for me, then show it to me.

I went to the Bible study group with them and that was the first time I read the Bible and the pastor, who was explaining the verses, showed me how to touch and hold the Bible. On that day, the pastor was teaching on John 14:6: ‘I am the way, the truth and the life.’ While he explained the passage, I felt as if he was answering the questions I had when I was at the hospital. On that day, November 8, 2013, I became a believer.

How Muslims are finding Jesus without Christians in North Africa - Open Doors USA

Notice her question “Why me”, “If you are God, show how glorious You are, who You are. Either I die or if you have something for me, then show it to me.” and God answered her prayer.

Go to the web page and see for yourself, people in closed countries are finding Christ Jesus and trusting in Him for their salvation without hearing the gospel message. It seems I have more faith in our sovereign God than you do. God will and does draw people to Himself by many methods.


As seems to be your usual approach to a text you highlight the text you want and want us to overlook the rest.

Do you acknowledge that you didn't even quote a full sentence? Let's look at the whole sentence.
Romans 3:21-25
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

It's a gift, Silverhair.​

I did not think would be necessary to copy in the full sentence as people could look it up if they wished. But since you chose to do so lets look at what it shows us. I agree that the grace of God is a gift, we do not deserve it but He will save those that meat the conditions He made, faith in His son. You did not bold the reason why God gives us that gift of salvation “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”

You seem to have trouble with any passage that says we are “justified by faith” why is that? As seen in the verses I pointed out.

You seem to be so fixated on proving your point that you just run over the fact that we are justified by or through faith. God saves those that believe which was the point of the verses that I posted But that is something that you always miss.

 

[AustinC]

No I am saying you teach a gospel contrary to the one Paul preached

Paul taught salvation by grace alone. I teach the same.

Since you make salvation by the work of man, it is you who is fighting against Paul and God.

You have constantly claimed that people are saved before they believe, remember according to you God gives them faith after they are saved. Your words Austin “I preach that God chose to save us by grace alone, which caused us to have faith and believe.” So according to you people do not even have to trust in Him before they are saved.

Grace. Silverhair, that is grace. Why do you revolt against grace?

That is not biblical and is a false gospel. You try to use Eph 2:4-7 to support your view but sorry it does not. All you have to do is read one more verse Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

I often quote Ephesians 2:1-10. I also quoted the full sentence in Romans 3 that you cut off. Both places Paul says our salvation and our faith are gifts from God, not caused by ourself. Yet, you teach human will causes God to save. That is a graceless gospel, not taught by anyone in the Bible.

Austin you have made a false claim, nice way of saying you lied, show me the post where I said “that they can be saved by observing nature alone.” What I said is the people in closed countries can and have come to know Christ with out ever hearing the gospel message.

Thanks for the clarification. In any case, you cannot come to faith without hearing the gospel message. God always sends someone to give the gospel message.

I did not think would be necessary to copy in the full sentence as people could look it up if they wished. But since you chose to do so lets look at what it shows us. I agree that the grace of God is a gift, we do not deserve it but He will save those that meat the conditions He made, faith in His son. You did not bold the reason why God gives us that gift of salvation “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.”

That is justification, Silverhair. The whole passage is about justification, which comes after salvation. Do you know the difference?
I will lay it out:
Salvation>Justification>Sanctification>Glorification

You get confused and thus misuse Romans 3.

You seem to have trouble with any passage that says we are “justified by faith” why is that? As seen in the verses I pointed out.

No trouble at all. But you seem to forget that salvation comes before justification and thus you are confused.

You seem to be so fixated on proving your point that you just run over the fact that we are justified by or through faith. God saves those that believe which was the point of the verses that I posted But that is something that you always miss.

Again, you seem to completely ignore salvation by grace alone. Why is that? Why do you insist on salvation by works of man?

 

[Silverhair]

Paul taught salvation by grace alone. I teach the same.

Since you make salvation by the work of man, it is you who is fighting against Paul and God.


Grace. Silverhair, that is grace. Why do you revolt against grace?


I often quote Ephesians 2:1-10. I also quoted the full sentence in Romans 3 that you cut off. Both places Paul says our salvation and our faith are gifts from God, not caused by ourself. Yet, you teach human will causes God to save. That is a graceless gospel, not taught by anyone in the Bible.


Thanks for the clarification. In any case, you cannot come to faith without hearing the gospel message. God always sends someone to give the gospel message.


That is justification, Silverhair. The whole passage is about justification, which comes after salvation. Do you know the difference?
I will lay it out:
Salvation>Justification>Sanctification>Glorification

You get confused and thus misuse Romans 3.


No trouble at all. But you seem to forget that salvation comes before justification and thus you are confused.


Again, you seem to completely ignore salvation by grace alone. Why is that? Why do you insist on salvation by works of man?

Well it seems to me that both you and reformed1689 have a problem with the English language or you just do not like what you read and ignore the text completely. Either way it comes down to your being lost in your calvinism and trusting it more than you trust the bible.

As a Christian I feel it is my duty to try and help people understand the bible but I can only lead them to the truth I can not make them believe it. I have shown you scripture and pointed out some of the errors in your thinking but to no avail, you are both blinded by the errors of calvinism that you call truth.

The fact that you think faith is a work shows just how blinded you are. I hope is that God in His mercy will open your blinded eyes to the truth that He wants you to know but that will require that you humble yourselves before Him and ask for His forgiveness for your arrogance and lack of trust in His word.

 

[Reformed1689]

Well it seems to me that both you and reformed1689 have a problem with the English language or you just do not like what you read and ignore the text completely.

Trust me, of the three of us it is not me or @AustinC that have these issues.

 

[AustinC]

Well it seems to me that both you and reformed1689 have a problem with the English language or you just do not like what you read and ignore the text completely. Either way it comes down to your being lost in your calvinism and trusting it more than you trust the bible.

As a Christian I feel it is my duty to try and help people understand the bible but I can only lead them to the truth I can not make them believe it. I have shown you scripture and pointed out some of the errors in your thinking but to no avail, you are both blinded by the errors of calvinism that you call truth.

The fact that you think faith is a work shows just how blinded you are. I hope is that God in His mercy will open your blinded eyes to the truth that He wants you to know but that will require that you humble yourselves before Him and ask for His forgiveness for your arrogance and lack of trust in His word.

Well, let's address reading comprehension and your false statement.

First, James tells us that faith actually does the work God ordained us to do. This is also why faith comes after God saves us by grace alone.
James 2:5,18,20,22-24
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Second, you have entirely ignored salvation and have jumped right to justification, somehow equating justification as being the same thing as salvation, which it is not.
Remember the order:
Salvation > Justification > Sanctification > Glorification
Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Silverhair, you have shown us that your grasp of God and His word is poor. You are incapable of showing others the grace of God as you replace God's grace with human works as the means of salvation. I have directly quoted you in this thread where you tell us that humans cause God to save them.

Finally, you accuse me of arrogance when I point out your error. I can see how you might think correcting you when you don't think you are wrong would be perceived by you as being arrogant. I respectfully disagree.

 

[Silverhair]

Well, let's address reading comprehension and your false statement.

First, James tells us that faith actually does the work God ordained us to do. This is also why faith comes after God saves us by grace alone.
James 2:5,18,20,22-24
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Second, you have entirely ignored salvation and have jumped right to justification, somehow equating justification as being the same thing as salvation, which it is not.
Remember the order:
Salvation > Justification > Sanctification > Glorification
Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Silverhair, you have shown us that your grasp of God and His word is poor. You are incapable of showing others the grace of God as you replace God's grace with human works as the means of salvation. I have directly quoted you in this thread where you tell us that humans cause God to save them.

Finally, you accuse me of arrogance when I point out your error. I can see how you might think correcting you when you don't think you are wrong would be perceived by you as being arrogant. I respectfully disagree.

When you choose to follow a man made philosophy rather than the bible that says a great deal about you. You claim to trust the bible but deny clear scripture or twist it to fit within the constraints of calvinism. Actually calvinism seems to have a lot in common with Mormonism. They both follow the errant teachings of a man, they both change the definition of words, they both claim that those that disagree with it just do not understand the teachings, they tend to be dismissive of those that are not part of the group, they both claim a better understanding of the text of the bible.

Now I am sure that the response will be that is not us that's you and that is fine. I do not need the TULIP or one of your confessions, I just trust the clear text of the bible.

 

[Brightfame52]

Man naturally cant choose Christ Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

We by nature lack the ability to believe in Jesus, the Jesus of scripture that is.

 

[Reformed1689]

When you choose to follow a man made philosophy rather than the bible that says a great deal about you.

The problem is we aren't following a man-made philosophy.

 

[AustinC]

When you choose to follow a man made philosophy rather than the bible that says a great deal about you. You claim to trust the bible but deny clear scripture or twist it to fit within the constraints of calvinism. Actually calvinism seems to have a lot in common with Mormonism. They both follow the errant teachings of a man, they both change the definition of words, they both claim that those that disagree with it just do not understand the teachings, they tend to be dismissive of those that are not part of the group, they both claim a better understanding of the text of the bible.

Now I am sure that the response will be that is not us that's you and that is fine. I do not need the TULIP or one of your confessions, I just trust the clear text of the bible.

Indeed, your first sentence is true and you need to stop following your man-made philosophy that is not supported in the Bible.
I note that you still refuse to acknowledge that salvation precedes justification, even though scripture is clear.
I also note that you now introduce multiple strawmen in your post, while ignoring the scripture I present to you.
Final note: Everyone reading this thread can see your twisting and avoidance, showing them your deceptive nature, which is contrary to the Spirit of God. While your pride is such that you will die on a hill of false doctrine, it is the reader here whom I am most concerned with as they read your folly.

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, your first sentence is true and you need to stop following your man-made philosophy that is not supported in the Bible.
I note that you still refuse to acknowledge that salvation precedes justification, even though scripture is clear.
I also note that you now introduce multiple strawmen in your post, while ignoring the scripture I present to you.
Final note: Everyone reading this thread can see your twisting and avoidance, showing them your deceptive nature, which is contrary to the Spirit of God. While your pride is such that you will die on a hill of false doctrine, it is the reader here whom I am most concerned with as they read your folly.

Augustine Calvin developed a man-made philosophy that you follow. I follow the bible. You can huff and puff all you want but it will not change the reality that calvinism is a man made philosophy.

 

[Reformed1689]

Augustine Calvin developed a man-made philosophy that you follow.

100% false and just ignorant of the facts.

 

[AustinC]

Augustine Calvin developed a man-made philosophy that you follow.philosophy.

What, exactly would that be and where do I ever quote Augustine Calvin?
Since you bring it up, you can find all the material where I quote this person and folliw them. Otherwise, you can admit right now that you are making this up from your own imagination.

[/QUOTE]I follow the bible.[/QUOTE]
Let's correct this.
You assert a very particular opinion that is your theology. Then, you pick a verse from here or there, telling me that the verse confirms your assertion. You do the same thing that anyone does. In this light, you do what the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, Lutheran Church, Mennonite Church, etc, thinkers do/did. Except, you do it exceptionally poorly with no actual intelligent support from the Bible. You just make a statement and then pick a verse. You even picked one that was actually just a prepositional phrase within a sentence, and you thought it made your point.

So...you don't follow the Bible. Instead, you force the Bible to follow you.

You can huff and puff all you want but it will not change the reality that calvinism is a man made philosophy.

What is Calvinism? You bring it up and never actually address the topic forum. Why is that, Silverhair?
What I observe is Silverhair, desperately trying to get out of the pit into which his own man-made assertion has dug him, and deflecting away from actually admitting he is making things up and trying to force the Bible to fit his own assertions.

It's your right to be disingenuous. It's my right to shed light on your disingenuity.

 

[Silverhair]

100% false and just ignorant of the facts.

Do you not even know the history of the theology that you follow?

 

[Silverhair]

What, exactly would that be and where do I ever quote Augustine Calvin?
Since you bring it up, you can find all the material where I quote this person and folliw them. Otherwise, you can admit right now that you are making this up from your own imagination.

I follow the bible.[/QUOTE]
Let's correct this.
You assert a very particular opinion that is your theology. Then, you pick a verse from here or there, telling me that the verse confirms your assertion. You do the same thing that anyone does. In this light, you do what the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, Lutheran Church, Mennonite Church, etc, thinkers do/did. Except, you do it exceptionally poorly with no actual intelligent support from the Bible. You just make a statement and then pick a verse. You even picked one that was actually just a prepositional phrase within a sentence, and you thought it made your point.

So...you don't follow the Bible. Instead, you force the Bible to follow you.


What is Calvinism? You bring it up and never actually address the topic forum. Why is that, Silverhair?
What I observe is Silverhair, desperately trying to get out of the pit into which his own man-made assertion has dug him, and deflecting away from actually admitting he is making things up and trying to force the Bible to fit his own assertions.

It's your right to be disingenuous. It's my right to shed light on your disingenuity.[/QUOTE]

Do you have to quote augustine or calvin to follow their philosophy, NO. But as you claim to be a calvinist then you follow their philosophy. Simple logic there. You continue to fight against the bible, why I do not know but you do. You deny clear scripture or tell me I do not understand what the text means. Your refusal to believe the scripture is on you.

 

[Reformed1689]

Do you not even know the history of the theology that you follow?

Oh I do, you obviously do not.

 

[AustinC]

Do you have to quote augustine or calvin to follow their philosophy, NO.

Sure you do. If you are not quoting them, then the only thing that can be said is that your observation of scripture is similar to Augustine or to Calvin. But, you cannot label them as following these individuals.
This is your strawman. You cannot accept that the Bible shows us something that both the early fathers and the present living saints can equally observe.
So, show me where I quote Augustine or Calvin, otherwise note that you have created a strawman and you are being disingenuous.

But as you claim to be a calvinist then you follow their philosophy.

Be honest. You label me a calvinist. When have I quoted calvin?
Silverhair, you have created a strawman.

It may be that Calvin and I observe the Bible and draw similar lines, but that does not mean, by any imagination, that I follow calvin.
Again, you are being disingenuous.

Simple logic there.

Indeed, you are a simple man.

You continue to fight against the bible, why I do not know but you do.

Here your assertion is false...unless you imagine yourself to be the Bible. Do you think you are the Bible, Silverhair? If so, see a mental health specialist.
The Bible is wonderful and I embrace each word as God ordained.
You, on the other hand, are a terrible theologian. Just awful.

You deny clear scripture or tell me I do not understand what the text means. Your refusal to believe the scripture is on you.

Show me where I deny scripture. You can't.
I reject your awful theology as being terrible hermeneutics that no human should ever follow.
My refusal to believe you is indeed on me. You, however, are not the Bible.

 

[Reformed1689]

Then, you pick a verse from here or there, telling me that the verse confirms your assertion.

Interesting, that is exactly what you do.

 

[Reformed1689]

It may be that Calvin and I observe the Bible and draw similar lines, but that does not mean, by any imagination, that I follow calvin.

Lol just being Calvinist doesn't mean you follow Calvin in general. And yes, the great strawman argument of the ignorant.

 

[Reformed1689]

You, on the other hand, are a terrible theologian. Just awful.

100%

 

[AustinC]

Interesting, that is exactly what you do.

Indeed, one of his picks was actually a part of a sentence, cutting off both the front and the back of the sentence...let alone quoting the passage frim which the sentence resides. It is so sloppy. It really is exactly what non-Christians do when making an argument from the Bible. Why would any Christian want to treat the Bible like a non-Christian?