Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Yes I have seen calvinists do that all the time. It is especially true when they take them out of context as they are want to do.
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Yes I have seen calvinists do that all the time. It is especially true when they take them out of context as they are want to do.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You do it in just about every post.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Give me the post where I said that man saves himself, either you can not read or your just ignorant or both. God saves a man because the man trusts in His son. Just because you deny what the bible says does not require that all people do so. I have shown you many verses that show you the truth of scripture but you just refuse to believe them and instead hold to your calvinist theology. Only God can help you see the truth now.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
This post right here. You said, God saves a man BECAUSE the man trusts in His Son.
No, that is not what Scripture states. That is the ACTIVATOR, the MEANS, but not the CAUSE of the Salvation. The Cause is God's choice.
Indeed, Silverhair makes man the cause and God the reacting effect. His teaching is merit-based salvation that nullifies salvation by grace alone. The other person to do this is sbw.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you do actually deny scripture, which you deny doing:
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Now I realize these verse may be to hard for you to understand but if you pray for understanding I am sure God will give it to you.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin you claim that you can read, prove it by actually reading the bible text and not reading into it.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Out of context verses mean nothing. None of those say they were saved BECAUSE they believed.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The meaning in those text is clear you just do not want to see it, To put it bluntly. Your comment is really really dumb. You are a great example of a close minded calvinist. You do not want the truth of scripture, you want scripture to justify your errant theology so you refuse to see the truth when it is shown to you.
You are not the authority the bible is. You hold yourself up as one that decides what scripture means.
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If God saves us because we did "______" then it is salvation by works. No other way around it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Looks like you do not read your bible. Or perhaps you only read the verses that you think support your view.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You are the one closed minded and not reading, You never did answer my post about draw.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Which time, I mean I have answered that question for you several times, but you never seem to get it do you. So ya I did but you must not have liked what I said.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Plus, as you already pointed out, the gospel is not an absolute necessity in salvation. Oh what a heresy that is! There is a song we sing at church called "To God be the Glory", and there is a line in there that is ever so true..."Oh, come to the Father, through Jesus the Son," Just as Peter proclaimed in Acts of the Apostles 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among mankind by which we must be saved.” And the only way ppl can truly know the Christ is via the word of God and not natural revelation. All NR does is show them as God the Creator, not God the Saviour.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Since you do not think that my answer in post #176 was clear enough. I will copy it here
#178 Reformed1689, Yesterday at 7:31 PM
You do understand what context means I hope? But I have to ask, from what you have posted are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I posted?
You do understand what context means I hope? But I have to ask, from what you have posted are you agreeing or disagreeing with what I posted?
You quoted other material but you did not say what you thought. You say G1670 does not mean draw in that verse so if it does not in that verse but rather means drag as you seem to indicate then it would have to mean drag in Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." so now your making yourself a universalist.
But what I did notice was that even what you had posted shows that in Joh 6:44 the Greek word is translated DRAW. So it seems you do agree with what I had posted.
#170 Silverhair, Yesterday at 2:09 PM
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I have answered to this topic several times. We are dealing with G1670 helkúō draw. To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force. To draw a sword (Joh_18:10) Word Study Dic
I do wish you would stop with the pejoratives. But I have to ask what is it that you are trying to prove here. You should know that the way that word is translated depends upon context. So he drew the sword, OK. But then you say "it is always with force, attraction" and you say this is how it is used in Johannine literature. So your now saying that Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all peoples to Myself." means that Christ Jesus will now force all people to come to Him. So now you are a universalist.
Perhaps now you will just believe what the bible says instead of trying to force your views on every text. As far as someone not knowing how to be honest , I would say that label applies to you.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
12:32 is not about individuals. CONTEXT
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Who do you think are drawn to Christ Jesus? It's people. CONTEXT THE BIBLE. You are now just showing that you are a real calvinist. You will avoid anything that may actually make you think beyond the calvinist dogma. Do you really think that when Christ Jesus said those words they were just meant for those He was speaking to. If that was the case then why do you read the bible at all? Use the brains the God gave you , you are better than what you have been showing of late.
I am including the following so that you can stop saying I do not understand the meaning of G1670 helkúō Draw/drag
WordStudy Dictionary
In this section we will be looking at the word “draw” G1670 as it is used in this context. “The Complete Word Study Series” by Zodhiates.
Draw G1670
"To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō (G4951). ... Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come)."
Webster's Dictionary defines induce this way:
INDU'CE, v.t. [L. induco; in and duco, to lead.]
To lead, as by persuasion or argument; to prevail on; to incite; to influence by motives.
TDNT +
In the OT helkein draw {ABP+ G1670} denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, says helkuo is used figuratively “of the pull on man’s inner life. . . . draw, attract J 6:44” [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, p. 251].
The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].
The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament has, “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie, p. 13].
The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller says, “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)” [p. 144].
Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible by Calvinist Spiros Zodhiates, says, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids, p. 1831].
More reference works could be cited but is it necessary? Not a single one of them defines draw as found in Joh_12:32 or Joh_6:44 as “compel or force.”
This gracious working of God does not compel or force anyone to believe but enables all to respond to God’s commands to turn away from sin in repentance, and towards the Savior Jesus Christ in faith.
Context matters but so does logic. You seem at times to struggle with both. {no insult intended} I think that your calvinism is clouding your mind and blinding you to the truths of scripture.
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