Chosen Childlessness

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
BTW, I am curious as to how a couple knows that God has told them to have children.

How does anyone know what God tells them? Faithful prayer, studying the Word, and being attentive to the Holy Spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]How would studying the Word help in deciding to have children or not, since Scripture apparently does not speak to the issue? The way you've laid it out, Scripture speaks as much on this issue as it does about what socks I should wear? I don't go to the Bible to see what socks I should wear, so why should I go there for knowing if I should have children or not?

And how do we know if we are being attentive to the Holy Spirit?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
By this statement, you yourself have created a standard - a standard of biblical interpretation. So why are you allowed to apply this standard to the rest of us, but we can't apply our standards that you disagree with?

Oh, please, you're simply accusing me of doing what you're doing, thus taking focus off the topic. Sorry, but even if you're right, you have still failed to make a scriptural case for mandating that all couples must have children.

Your standard of biblical interpretation oulined above is that we are allowed to intepret it for ourselves, but we can't believe our interpretations are true (because if we believe they are true, then we by default are "applying that standard to all").

I do no such thing. Paul has no problem letting each person be convinced in his own mind. I have no problem with that either. Your implication would have us believe that if your conviction must therefore be a conviction for all, or it's not true. That's ridiculous. You're welcome to your conviction, and I support and applaud your conviction. But you have no authority to apply your conviction to all.

So answer me this - why do you get to apply your standard of biblical interpretation to the rest of us?

I'm not. I'm insisting that you not do that. Big difference.

 

[Andy T.]

Where do you get this idea that I am trying to enforce or apply my beliefs on all? I've simply laid out what I believe the Scriptures teach to be true. If I didn't think they were true I wouldn't believe them. You can either agree or disagree with the same. But you can't just let it be at that - you have to go on pontificating about how my view is not "based on Scpripture". My view is based on Scripture, you just happen to disagree with it.

And I'll once again state that I do not think the norm is for ALL couples - they just need to have good reasons to not have children. You keep ascribing a more exhaustive view to me.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Where do you get this idea that I am trying to enforce or apply my beliefs on all?

You are the one who is insisting that the conviction you have come to must be accepted as truth, instead of letting each person be convinced in his own mind.

I've simply laid out what I believe the Scriptures teach to be true.

And I've already stated, I don't have a problem with individual conviction.

But you can't just let it be at that - you have to go on pontificating about how my view is not "based on Scpripture". My view is based on Scripture, you just happen to disagree with it.

You've shown no scripture. You've presented a personal view, which I can respect. You've also made an implication that your view is a scriptural mandate for all, which I do not respect.

And I'll once again state that I do not think the norm is for ALL couples - they just need to have good reasons. You keep ascribing a more exhaustive view to me.

Who decides the reasons? Since scripture does not require any such reason, your point, again, is not scripturally supported.

 

[Andy T.]

Who decides the reasons? Since scripture does not require any such reason, your point, again, is not scripturally supported.

If the reasons are based on selfishness/self-centeredness or lack of faith, then those reasons are sinful. You do believe that selfishness and lack of faith are sins, don't you?

 

[Andy T.]

Scripture that I base my view on:

Gen 1:28
Gen 9:1
Gen 9:7
And all the verses that talk about children as a blessing from the Lord.
And finding only one verse that supports childlessness - and it is in the context of singleness and for the complete devotion to the Lord's work.

Quit bearing false witness, John.

 

[Johnv]

That's a bit broad, but, generally, yes, I believe selfishness and lack of faith are either sin or precurser to sin (and I'm sure no one disputes that fact that this can be scripturally supported). Scripture makes no distinction in this arena to whether children are involved.

Refusing to have children based on selfishness or lack of faith can be a sin. Likewise, having children based on selfishness/self-centeredness or lack of faith can be a sin.

I'm willing to wager that the standard is often applied to those who have no children, but rarely applies to those who have children. At least, it's been my observation. IMO, the standard should be applied to neither without adequate reason.

 

[Andy T.]

I'm willing to wager that the standard is often applied to those who have no children, but rarely applies to those who have children. At least, it's been my observation. IMO, the standard should be applied to neither without adequate reason.

Probably because it's the case more often with childfree couples than with those with children. I don't deny that people could have children out of mere selfishness, but I've never met anyone like that. But I've met several couples who are childfree for selfish reasons.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Scripture that I base my view on

None of those verses mandate couples to have children. None of those verses condemn couples who have no children.

Quit bearing false witness, John.

How can I be the one bearing false witness, when you're the one saying you weren't applying your interpretation to all, but then go on about how this applies to all??

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Probably because it's the case more often with childfree couples than with those with children. I don't deny that people could have children out of mere selfishness, but I've never met anyone like that. But I've met several couples who are childfree for selfish reasons.

I happen to be in the opposite boat. I know several couples who are childless, and who have children. I've never met anyone who has no children out of selfishness, but have known several couples who have had children for selfish reasons.

So, clearly, and I'm sure you'll agree, having children or not having children is not an indicator of selfishness or selflesness, nor an indicator of lack of faith or presence of faith.

 

[TaterTot]

I am with JohnV here. I dont know anyone who doesnt have them for selfish reasons. I know MANY who do - to "fix" a marital problem, to get personal fulfillment from it (not from parenting, from having them), because its the thing to do, because they really want a girl or really want a boy, or because they think it might fill some other void in their lives. Most people I know do not base their decisions for having or not having kids on faith.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
Scripture that I base my view on

None of those verses mandate couples to have children. None of those verses condemn couples who have no children.

Quit bearing false witness, John.

How can I be the one bearing false witness, when you're the one saying you weren't applying your interpretation to all, but then go on about how this applies to all?? </font>[/QUOTE]O.k. so we disagree on how these Scriptures are applied. I believe that God has set a norm for all married couples - not just Adam and Eve and Noah's sons. So the next question is if a couple is outside of that norm, what are their reasons? If they are based in selfishness or lack of faith, then it is a problem.

So we can agree that I do have Scriptures to support my view - you just disagree with how I interpret/apply them.

Not sure what you are claiming in your second statement. I just thought it odd that you ascribed to me that I was trying to enforce or make people believe the same as me. It was a silly thing to say, because I have no authority over anyone here, and I am pretty sure I can't make people believe contrary to their will.

I have laid out my belief - I believe it is true, and if it is true, it is true for everyone - there's no way around that. IOW, my position and your position cannot both be true (they could both be false). I assume you believe your position is true, in which case you think it is true for everyone. So what is the problem? You act like I want to go around enforcing by ideas by throwing people in jail, but yet you get a free pass on your position and you freely apply it all of us.

And you did bear false witness saying I supplied no Scripture - I did way back by quoting "be fruitful and multiply".

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by TaterTot:
I am with JohnV here. I dont know anyone who doesnt have them for selfish reasons. I know MANY who do - to "fix" a marital problem, to get personal fulfillment from it (not from parenting, from having them), because its the thing to do, because they really want a girl or really want a boy, or because they think it might fill some other void in their lives. Most people I know do not base their decisions for having or not having kids on faith.

Wow - it sounds like you've counseled with a lot of people on their reasons for having children...or maybe you're just making assumptions. Because I doubt if people will come right out and say they wanted to have children to fill a void in their life. Such a statement would only come out in the most intense of counseling sessions.

 

[TaterTot]

"Wow - it sounds like you've counseled with a lot of people on their reasons for having children..."

Actually, I have.

Some people I have asked about it say, they dont know, they just want another one. One actually told me she thought it would keep her husband from leaving her after her affair.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
Probably because it's the case more often with childfree couples than with those with children. I don't deny that people could have children out of mere selfishness, but I've never met anyone like that. But I've met several couples who are childfree for selfish reasons.

I happen to be in the opposite boat. I know several couples who are childless, and who have children. I've never met anyone who has no children out of selfishness, but have known several couples who have had children for selfish reasons.

So, clearly, and I'm sure you'll agree, having children or not having children is not an indicator of selfishness or selflesness, nor an indicator of lack of faith or presence of faith. </font>[/QUOTE]Sounds like you've done a lot of counseling too, or simply made assumptions.

I agree with your second statement. The mere fact of not having children or vice versa is not enough to tell us if there is selfishness or not.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
And you did bear false witness saying I supplied no Scripture - I did way back by quoting "be fruitful and multiply".

I bore no such false witness. You have provided no scripture which mandates that couples must have children. You've provided no scripture that referrs to not having children as a curse, a sin, selfishness, or lack of faith.

You have provided, and I acknowlege, scripture to show that children ar a blessing, and that people of faith commonly had children.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Sounds like you've done a lot of counseling too, or simply made assumptions.

Professionally no, but as a former member of college/career ministry staff, yes. More than one couple sought to have children to fix a broken marriage and similar reasons. Of course, it never works. I would never point the "sin" finger at them, but I would point them in the direction of where the problem is, and it's not in the diretion of children.

 

[Pete Richert]

You have provided no scripture which mandates that couples must have children. You've provided no scripture that referrs to not having children as a curse, a sin, selfishness, or lack of faith.

I think it is safe to conclude he has provided scripture which he intreprets to be a command to all married couples to have children. He is not FORCING his intrepretation on us in that he can not make us believe it. He is right though that if his intrepreation is correct, then it is a command and all married couples should have children.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
I think it is safe to conclude he has provided scripture which he intreprets to be a command to all married couples to have children.

I will acknowlege such.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
And you did bear false witness saying I supplied no Scripture - I did way back by quoting "be fruitful and multiply".

I bore no such false witness. You have provided no scripture which mandates that couples must have children. You've provided no scripture that referrs to not having children as a curse, a sin, selfishness, or lack of faith.

You have provided, and I acknowlege, scripture to show that children ar a blessing, and that people of faith commonly had children. </font>[/QUOTE]How else were Noah's sons to fill the earth if they didn't have children??? God mandated that they have children. You may disagree that it still applies today, but it is a scripture that mandates couples to have children. So stop bearing false witness that I "have no scripture". I do have scripture, you just disagree with my interpretation/application.

You see, it makes a big difference in how the argument is framed. The way you are framing it, you can dismiss it with your standard (that applies to all of us, BTW) and attempt to show the other person is a bald-faced legalist who just invents things contra-Scripture. The more honest way to frame the argument is to simply disagree with your opponent's interpretation.