Chosen Childlessness

[Helen]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is no time in the Bible I am aware of when childlessness is not considered a curse or a sign of God's displeasure. And there is no time in the Bible when children are not considered a blessing.

"I don't want YOUR choice of blessings in my life, God. I'll pick my own and You cooperate, OK?"

Is that the way it is now?

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
I will have to take exception with this statement.

Artimaeus, I take exception to your quoting Mohler's statement as if it were mine.

But two things: (1) I do agree with what I believe is the spirit and meaning of Mohler's statement. (2) Mohler does not say that he means this of everyone without exception.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Artimaeus, I take exception to your quoting Mohler's statement as if it were mine.

I sit corrected, a total lack of paying attention on my part.

But two things: (1) I do agree with what I believe is the spirit and meaning of Mohler's statement. (2) Mohler does not say that he means this of everyone without exception.

Choosing to not have children is not a sin. The reasons one chooses not to have children may or may not be a sin and even if the majority of people who make that decision do so for sinful reason it does not make deciding to not have children a sin, just the reasons.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Do you view this as a problem?

Given that there is no decrease in polulation, and given that there is no scripture mandate for a person to have children, and given that we often comment that a person who isn't going to take care of teir children shouldn't have them, I see no problem with people choosing not to have children. My wife and I have chosen not to have children. I already have children from a previous marriage.

Originally posted by Helen:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but there is no time in the Bible I am aware of when childlessness is not considered a curse or a sign of God's displeasure.

Only in reference to a person's inability to have children, not a person choosing not to have children. And it is not a biblical absolute even there. Abraham and Sarah had no children because she was barren. Her barrenness was not a curse or a sign of displeasure from God. It was just a fact.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks, Artimaeus. I can get in enough trouble with my own quotes, without having to take responsibility for someone else's!

I did not understand Mohler to mean that everyone who chooses to childless is sinning in doing so. Beyond that, I'll not spend a lot of time arguing about it. I could be wrong in the way I take what he is saying. I only read the opening post and did not click the link to read the rest of what he said.

 

[El_Guero]

Artimaeus:

"Choosing to not have children is not a sin."

What did you base this upon?

 

[El_Guero]

PastorSBC

"Do you view this as a problem?"

Yes, and I view the rapidly rising age of marriage to be a problem, as well (different thread).

However, I believe that both are symptoms of our lowering view of marriage. I am not saying that each couple has to have children. But, I do see that we as a people (American Christians) have a much lower view of family and children than we did 20 years ago.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
... I view the rapidly rising age of marriage to be a problem, as well...

Paul was single, and not a young guy. He goes so far as to praise being single.

I do see that we as a people (American Christians) have a much lower view of family and children than we did 20 years ago.

That's subjective at best. A recent study by a local batterred women's outreach (if I can find it, I'll post it) noted that child and spousal abuse has been on the decline over the last decade. That seems to suggest a higher view of family, not a lower view. Of course, I acknowlege that one factor alone does not an overall view make.

Further, what parent out there is telling their kids You need to get married as soon as possible after high school? Hopefully, none. Most of us parents are encouraging our kids to graduate from college and establish themselves before they think about establishing a family.

 

[Helen]

Johnv, my post came as a whole. You picked one part and responded to it when the rest stated:

And there is no time in the Bible when children are not considered a blessing.

"I don't want YOUR choice of blessings in my life, God. I'll pick my own and You cooperate, OK?"

Is that the way it is now?

So I ask again, is that the way it is now?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
... And there is no time in the Bible when children are not considered a blessing.

In an effort to respond more wholely to yoru previous post:


Yes, children are, imo, a blessing, but that doesn't equate to a biblical mandate to have children. There are many blessings that God bestowes upon his people. That doesn't mean that everyone must receive them all in order to be considered being obedient to the Lord.

Having or not having children is, in and of itslef, evidence of neither obedience nor disobedience.

 

[Helen]

It is certainly evidence of the person telling God what blessings he does not want, though!

 

[Johnv]

Not any more or less than couples who try to have children.

 

[menageriekeeper]

"I don't want YOUR choice of blessings in my life, God. I'll pick my own and You cooperate, OK?"

Is that the way it is now?

Now wait a minute Helen. I've heard you say something similar to this before and it's been bothering me for reasons I couldn't figure out till now.

What's been bothering me is this: We tell God all sorts of stuff we want. Some stuff we don't want. What is wrong with telling Him we don't want more children? It's not like we don't have the Holy Spirit to guide us when making our decisions. What you are suggesting denies all possibility of prayerful consideration and decision on our part and the guidance of the Holy Spirit on God's part. And why only this decision? Why are we allowed to make our own decisions on everything else, but not on the number of children we desire?

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Helen:
It is certainly evidence of the person telling God what blessings he does not want, though!

Your personal story is quite inspiring. But if you had not had some of your difficulties, would you have sought to adopt 9 kids, for example, instead of 6? How would you have known when you were done adopting?
Do you see any difference between ordering God and following up prudently on what you believe are God-led desires, through the means He has provided?

Karen

 

[Johnv]

Karen makes good sidepoint. My oldest daughter is not biologically mine. She's no less mine, however, and no less a blessing from the Lord. Am I less blessed because she's not biologically mine?

 

[Helen]

Karen, we stopped adopting
1. When our bedrooms were full to overflowing
2. When the county asked us to be emergency foster parents, and we said yes

(the two events happened together)

We may have adopted more later had my ex not been living two lives and decided the one he was living with us was not what he wanted. Lest you get the wrong impression, some of the adoptions were even more his decision than mine! But they were always mutual in the long run.

Menageriekeeper, you are comparing apples and oranges here. We ask God for what we want, knowing that His wisdom is far greater than ours and then trusting Him with the result. That is not the case when birth control is used. What that is doing is not only refusing to allow God His way, but, in effect, telling Him what you don't want and are doing your best to refuse, regardless of His wisdom on the issue.

Johnv, you are not even making sense. A couple who has relations without trying to prevent children is leaving it in the Lord's hands. That is a lot different from doing everything you can to take the control out of His hands.

As far as a non-biologic children being less yours, that is a rather silly thing to be asking me, don't you think???

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
Johnv, you are not even making sense. A couple who has relations without trying to prevent children is leaving it in the Lord's hands. That is a lot different from doing everything you can to take the control out of His hands.

Then, according to you, if a couple can't have children, and seeks numerous surgical methods to get pregnant, they're they're taking control out of hte Lord's hands. That's ridiculous, and not scripturally supportable.

As far as a non-biologic children being less yours, that is a rather silly thing to be asking me, don't you think???

In order for your contention to be consistent, and having children is a blessing, then my oldest is not a blessing, or at least, less of a blessing, than my biological children.

You can't have it both ways with your assertion. But since your assertion is, at best, scripturally weak, I know full well that I am not less blessed because I have a daughter who's not biologically mine. I also know full well that I am not "picking and choosing" God's blessings because I got a vasectomy. I further know full well that a couple with 1 child is no more or less blessed as the couple with 12 children or the couple with no children.

I'm sorry, but your claim that "children = blessing, therefore managing children = managing blessing" is as ridiculous as claiming that "no children = no blessing" or "fewer children = fewer blessings".

 

[Helen]

John, it is the Bible that says children are a blessing. You can argue with that all you want.

 

[Johnv]

And that's al the Bible says. Scripture does not require people to have children, nor does it forbid people from not having children.

 

[James Flagg]

I once had this discussion with another man who said he would never, ever have children because "all they (children) do is make noise and spread disease." Take that how you will, but my main quesion is simply this: how could it ever be a good thing for this person to reproduce themselves?? It's not like this guy considered himself a militant atheist; he was a member of a Second Baptist Church.

There are millions of people out there who are resolutely horrible parents, and we can only pray that they don't have children whether they consider themselves Christian or not.

The simple fact is that hyenas do a better job of raising their children than some humans do.

late,
JF