Chosen in Him

Side note:

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." ( Romans 4:13 )

" For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." ( Romans 4:13, NET )

Notice the difference?
I'll compare it for you:

In the AV, it tells us that the promise, that Abraham should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness OF faith.
In the NET, it tells us that the promise to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the Law, but through righteousness that COMES by faith.

Jon, righteousness does not come by faith, it is of faith.

" And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" ( Philippians 3:9 )

Again, righteousness does not come by faith...it is of God by faith.
Do you see the difference?

In the AV, righteousness is credited to the believer, and their faith is the evidence of it being credited to them.
In the NET, righteousness is credited to the believer because of their faith.

In other words, the NET has changed the words in order to support faith as the means by which the righteousness of Christ is credited to a person, instead of faith being the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

 

Characteristics that He created them with?
Think about it a bit more...

In effect, you're saying that He decides to save someone based on something He built into them, and that they then "tap into" in order to gain His favor, IMO.

 

Yes.

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

It has an origin, according to Scripture.
Where does that faith come from?

" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." ( Hebrews 12:1-2 )

Jesus Christ.

 

This is also verified by Romans 10.

The hearing, the ability to hear is given by Christ (the word of God), brings that which is given by the Father - faith.

Faith is “our faith” because God granted that faith to one He chose to believe in Him. The ownership of such faith is not innate, not available to all, not granted to all, but to those given the ears to hear.

 

"And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )

 

Van,

The basis of God choosing is not a person's foreseen faith.
Faith comes from God, but all men don't have faith.

If faith were the basis, then God would be choosing someone based on something He gave to only certain people...
And He would be respecting ( regarding ) them for it.

We're back to square one.
Scripture clearly states that God is not a respecter of persons.

I almost hate to say this, but there is Scripture that addresses every avenue of approach that one could think of to get to Heaven...and in the end, it all gets cancelled out and God gets the glory for saving someone, because He gave them everything that is "required" to pass His own "tests".

And believe me, those tests and trials are real.

But be assured, His children will pass them, because their faith is from Jesus Christ.
It isn't the kind of faith that fails when the tests come.
It is the kind of faith that overcomes the world ( 1 John 5:4 ).

He chooses ( Psalms 65:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Whether or not people find this offensive is a moot point, at least to me...He gets all the glory, and we fall at His feet in gratitude for His unspeakable gift.



May God bless you sir.

 

I believe this means that God had already chosen what would become of His people before He made them. Nothing to do with the false doctrine of 'automatic predestination'.

 

OK, I'll post it again and see if I've misunderstood anything:

With respect, I'm not interested in "the literature"...I don't read it.
Some people operate on that, but I don't.

I operate on the understanding of Scripture that I believe God has given me, and I don't go to the writings of men in order to get help understanding it, as tempting as that has been for me in the past.
I trust the Lord implicitly to show me the correct understanding of His word, even if I have to wait ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).

I'll answer the questions point-by-point, as I see Scripture addressing them:

1) "Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?" Yes.
2) " Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen?" No. God's children were not "in Him" before they were chosen.They were placed within the spiritual body of Christ by their Heavenly Father.
3) " How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?" Simply put, because God's word says that there are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:23 ). For the definition of the word "vessels", please see 1 Peter 3:7...Scripture defines and explains Scripture.

I disagree.

To me, that passage clearly teaches that God has chosen the believer through both sanctification of the Spirit / spirit, and belief of the truth.
They are the two things that God has used to bring us to an understanding of His gracious gift of eternal life.
The basis of election is found in many passages, one of which is Ephesians 1:3-14...the good pleasure of His will ( Ephesians 1:5 ), and to the glory of His grace ( Ephesians 1:6 ).

Based on Romans 3:10-18 and many other passages, God views man as totally in rebellion towards Him and His ways...He does not respect ( regard ) a man who is at enmity ( at odds, Romans 8:5-8 ) to Him.
Therefore, no man can humble himself unless God shows them the need to do so, which only comes through a change of heart...the new birth.

 

I see that, and I partially agree with what you've said here:

However, I do not agree that Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 suggests that those who value God's will, find favor with Him.
I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

Based on other Scripture, there is no man who values God's will, unless He changes their rebellious heart.
When I realized this important fact, I then began to understand what it was that the Lord has saved me from...my own love of sin, and His coming wrath and judgment on those who love it and will not let it go.

Respectfully, pieces of Scripture seem to preclude it, from my perspective.
However, God says that those who inherit eternal life must live by every word of God ( Matthew 4:4 ), not just relevant pieces that may suggest something.
I've learned over many years now, to work on declaration, and to fit all the pieces around God's declarative statements.

There's an old saying, "Assumption is the mother of all...", and implication and suggestion need to be placed on firmer ground than to simply take a look at pieces of Scripture and then run with them.

Do I think that's what you are doing here?
Yes.

But believe me...if I can do it, anyone can.
I'm a mess from the word, "go".

I agree that God does choose the believer.
The basis of that choice is where I think we disagree.


May God, in His wisdom and grace, reveal Himself to you more and more through His word and through His gifts, each passing day.

 

God knew His people before He created them ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139:15-16, Isaiah 49:1-5, Romans 9:23, Galatians 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:19 ). My "interpretation" ( read, "understanding of God's word" ) is based squarely on what I see God's word saying.
I don't see where I'm disregarding any pieces.
However, I see where you might be regarding some to the exclusion of others.

The "devil" is in the details.

God's choice of a person does not rest on something that He gave them, and they then "exercise" in tandem with their free will choice.
God's choice of a person to salvation is based on His purposes, not our will to be saved.
Faith is the evidence, not the means ( Hebrews 11:1 )...therefore, God's gift is faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ), which is also a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and was not present before He gave it to the believer via the "hearing" of the word ( Romans 10:17 ).

Romans 9:23 is in context with the rest of the verses around it, and the point that God is making begins around Romans 9:6.
It refers to God making vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy.

To me, it all fits together just fine.
I see man totally bankrupt before God, and unable and unwilling to be reconciled...you appear to see that man is only sick, and in need of help in order to reconcile himself to God.

According to Scripture, God does the reconciling ( Romans 5:10-11, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Colossians 1:19-22 ), we do not.

Again, read the Psalms and Proverbs for a complete picture on the condition of mankind both with and without the intervening work of the Holy Spirit.

In addition, the fallen men of Matthew 23 are of two groups:

The Pharisees, who were trying to enter into Heaven by their own efforts, and those that are entering in by God's perfect efforts to save them.
The religious always hinder the saved by trying to place burdens on them that Christ removed through the blood of His cross.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in his finished work on the cross alone.
It relies on nothing except God's deciding to place His favor on someone, therefore it is a gift, not a reward.
I'm sorry that you do not seem to understand that.


This is my final reply to you in this thread.
May God bless you richly, sir.