Chosen in Him

[Dave G]

By faith are we descendents of Abraham. Even tho we were not IN Abraham. So by faith we are In Christ.

Side note:

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." ( Romans 4:13 )

" For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith." ( Romans 4:13, NET )

Notice the difference?
I'll compare it for you:

In the AV, it tells us that the promise, that Abraham should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness OF faith.
In the NET, it tells us that the promise to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the Law, but through righteousness that COMES by faith.

Jon, righteousness does not come by faith, it is of faith.

" And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" ( Philippians 3:9 )

Again, righteousness does not come by faith...it is of God by faith.
Do you see the difference?

In the AV, righteousness is credited to the believer, and their faith is the evidence of it being credited to them.
In the NET, righteousness is credited to the believer because of their faith.

In other words, the NET has changed the words in order to support faith as the means by which the righteousness of Christ is credited to a person, instead of faith being the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

 

[Van]

Lets see, we have the third claim of corporate salvation. That is a strawman argument, derailing discussion of the actual issue.

I'm not.
To me, you're looking for a declarative...God humbles, because man, left to himself, is only ever prideful and foolish.
Please read the Psalms and Proverbs.

It comes from understanding the word of God, which only comes with much time and study.
I didn't always believe and understand it the way I do now...it took a long time.

Again, if you don't see it, you don't see it.

Hi Dave, I was looking for a basis of your claim. I will accept you believe it is in there somewhere. But from my side of the street, the phrase appear to show God takes action according to the characteristics of people.

 

[Dave G]

But from my side of the street, the phrase appear to show God takes action according to the characteristics of people.

Characteristics that He created them with?
Think about it a bit more...

In effect, you're saying that He decides to save someone based on something He built into them, and that they then "tap into" in order to gain His favor, IMO.

 

[Van]

Was the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity, chosen before creation to be the Lamb of God and Redeemer. He was foreknown before creation as the Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:17-21.

 

[Van]

Characteristics that He created them with?

No, He credits our faith as righteousness.

 

[Dave G]

Was the Word, the Second Person of the Trinity, chosen before creation to be the Lamb of God and Redeemer. He was foreknown before creation as the Lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:17-21.

Yes.

 

[Dave G]

No, He credits our faith as righteousness.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

It has an origin, according to Scripture.
Where does that faith come from?

" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." ( Hebrews 12:1-2 )

Jesus Christ.

 

[agedman]

Again, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

It has an origin, according to Scripture.
Where does that faith come from?

" Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." ( Hebrews 12:1-2 )

Jesus Christ.

This is also verified by Romans 10.

The hearing, the ability to hear is given by Christ (the word of God), brings that which is given by the Father - faith.

Faith is “our faith” because God granted that faith to one He chose to believe in Him. The ownership of such faith is not innate, not available to all, not granted to all, but to those given the ears to hear.

 

[Dave G]

The ownership of such faith is not innate, not available to all, not granted to all, but to those given the ears to hear.

"And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )

 

[Dave G]

Van,

The basis of God choosing is not a person's foreseen faith.
Faith comes from God, but all men don't have faith.

If faith were the basis, then God would be choosing someone based on something He gave to only certain people...
And He would be respecting ( regarding ) them for it.

We're back to square one.
Scripture clearly states that God is not a respecter of persons.

I almost hate to say this, but there is Scripture that addresses every avenue of approach that one could think of to get to Heaven...and in the end, it all gets cancelled out and God gets the glory for saving someone, because He gave them everything that is "required" to pass His own "tests".

And believe me, those tests and trials are real.

But be assured, His children will pass them, because their faith is from Jesus Christ.
It isn't the kind of faith that fails when the tests come.
It is the kind of faith that overcomes the world ( 1 John 5:4 ).

He chooses ( Psalms 65:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Whether or not people find this offensive is a moot point, at least to me...He gets all the glory, and we fall at His feet in gratitude for His unspeakable gift.



May God bless you sir.

 

[Van]

Hi Dave

I agree, the bases of God choosing individuals for salvation is not foreseen faith. See the opening post.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches the bases of our election for salvation is through faith in the truth.

God does respect or oppose individuals bases on His knowledge of their heartfelt attitudes and attributes.

I explained the phrase "God is not a respecter of persons." The phrase supports my view. See post #8

You can say you believe your doctrine, but scripture precludes it. For example, God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.

At last something we agree on, God chooses us.

 

[Van]

I think most people would agree that when we were chosen individually for salvation, we obtained mercy.

However scripture teaches we lived without mercy before we obtained mercy. Thus scripture precludes individual election for salvation before creation.

 

[robycop3]

I believe this means that God had already chosen what would become of His people before He made them. Nothing to do with the false doctrine of 'automatic predestination'.

 

[Dave G]

Hi Dave

I agree, the bases of God choosing individuals for salvation is not foreseen faith. See the opening post.

OK, I'll post it again and see if I've misunderstood anything:

Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.

With respect, I'm not interested in "the literature"...I don't read it.
Some people operate on that, but I don't.

I operate on the understanding of Scripture that I believe God has given me, and I don't go to the writings of men in order to get help understanding it, as tempting as that has been for me in the past.
I trust the Lord implicitly to show me the correct understanding of His word, even if I have to wait ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ).

Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?

The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.

I'll answer the questions point-by-point, as I see Scripture addressing them:

1) "Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?" Yes.
2) " Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen?" No. God's children were not "in Him" before they were chosen.They were placed within the spiritual body of Christ by their Heavenly Father.
3) " How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?" Simply put, because God's word says that there are vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory ( Romans 9:23 ). For the definition of the word "vessels", please see 1 Peter 3:7...Scripture defines and explains Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches the bases of our election for salvation is through faith in the truth.

I disagree.

To me, that passage clearly teaches that God has chosen the believer through both sanctification of the Spirit / spirit, and belief of the truth.
They are the two things that God has used to bring us to an understanding of His gracious gift of eternal life.
The basis of election is found in many passages, one of which is Ephesians 1:3-14...the good pleasure of His will ( Ephesians 1:5 ), and to the glory of His grace ( Ephesians 1:6 ).

God does respect or oppose individuals bases on His knowledge of their heartfelt attitudes and attributes.

Based on Romans 3:10-18 and many other passages, God views man as totally in rebellion towards Him and His ways...He does not respect ( regard ) a man who is at enmity ( at odds, Romans 8:5-8 ) to Him.
Therefore, no man can humble himself unless God shows them the need to do so, which only comes through a change of heart...the new birth.

 

[Dave G]

I explained the phrase "God is not a respecter of persons." The phrase supports my view. See post #8

I see that, and I partially agree with what you've said here:

Perhaps the answer is God is not a respecter of persons according to the world's value system. He does not respect the well born over the common born, the powerful over powerless, or the rich over the poor.

Acts 10:34-35 suggests those who value God's will fine favor with Him.

However, I do not agree that Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 suggests that those who value God's will, find favor with Him.
I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

Based on other Scripture, there is no man who values God's will, unless He changes their rebellious heart.
When I realized this important fact, I then began to understand what it was that the Lord has saved me from...my own love of sin, and His coming wrath and judgment on those who love it and will not let it go.

You can say you believe your doctrine, but scripture precludes it

Respectfully, pieces of Scripture seem to preclude it, from my perspective.
However, God says that those who inherit eternal life must live by every word of God ( Matthew 4:4 ), not just relevant pieces that may suggest something.
I've learned over many years now, to work on declaration, and to fit all the pieces around God's declarative statements.

There's an old saying, "Assumption is the mother of all...", and implication and suggestion need to be placed on firmer ground than to simply take a look at pieces of Scripture and then run with them.

Do I think that's what you are doing here?
Yes.

But believe me...if I can do it, anyone can.
I'm a mess from the word, "go".

At last something we agree on, God chooses us.

I agree that God does choose the believer.
The basis of that choice is where I think we disagree.


May God, in His wisdom and grace, reveal Himself to you more and more through His word and through His gifts, each passing day.

 

[Van]

Hi Dave.
A)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.Acts 10:34-35.

I read verse 35 as saying those that value God's will find favor with Him. So the question becomes how many "pieces" are you comfortable disregarding?

B)
1) "Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?" Yes.

Before creation we did not exist physically or spiritually. God forms our spirit within us at conception. Therefore it seems you proclaim an interpretation that requires disregarding yet another "piece."

C)
"I disagree.
To me, that passage clearly teaches that God has chosen the believer through both sanctification of the Spirit / spirit, and belief of the truth."
Here you say on the one hand you disagree that our individual election for salvation is through faith in the truth, then you say "God has chosen the believer through both sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

D)
Romans 9:23 refers to existing individuals or those that did at one time exist, not before creation.


E)
Romans 3:10-18 teaches we are all sinners, but does not teach that God does not give grace to the humble. Note how often your interpretation of one passage creates conflict with many other passages.
Scripture cannot be broken, properly understood it all fits together.

F)
"Based on other Scripture, there is no man who values God's will..."
Scripture never says no one values God's will at any time ever. Again it says the opposite many places such as Acts 10:35. The fallen men of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God, thus valuing His will.

 

[Van]

Returning to the timing of our individual election, before creation or during our lifetime after God credits our faith to us as righteousness.

Scripture says we lived not as a (chosen) people, and lived without mercy, then we obtained mercy and became His people. Thus once again, scripture precludes our individual election before creation.

 

[Dave G]

Before creation we did not exist physically or spiritually. God forms our spirit within us at conception. Therefore it seems you proclaim an interpretation that requires disregarding yet another "piece."

God knew His people before He created them ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139:15-16, Isaiah 49:1-5, Romans 9:23, Galatians 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:19 ). My "interpretation" ( read, "understanding of God's word" ) is based squarely on what I see God's word saying.
I don't see where I'm disregarding any pieces.
However, I see where you might be regarding some to the exclusion of others.

Here you say on the one hand you disagree that our individual election for salvation is through faith in the truth, then you say "God has chosen the believer through both sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

The "devil" is in the details.

God's choice of a person does not rest on something that He gave them, and they then "exercise" in tandem with their free will choice.
God's choice of a person to salvation is based on His purposes, not our will to be saved.
Faith is the evidence, not the means ( Hebrews 11:1 )...therefore, God's gift is faith ( Ephesians 2:8 ), which is also a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), and was not present before He gave it to the believer via the "hearing" of the word ( Romans 10:17 ).

Romans 9:23 refers to existing individuals or those that did at one time exist, not before creation.

Romans 9:23 is in context with the rest of the verses around it, and the point that God is making begins around Romans 9:6.
It refers to God making vessels of wrath, and vessels of mercy.

Romans 3:10-18 teaches we are all sinners, but does not teach that God does not give grace to the humble. Note how often your interpretation of one passage creates conflict with many other passages.
Scripture cannot be broken, properly understood it all fits together.

To me, it all fits together just fine.
I see man totally bankrupt before God, and unable and unwilling to be reconciled...you appear to see that man is only sick, and in need of help in order to reconcile himself to God.

According to Scripture, God does the reconciling ( Romans 5:10-11, 2 Corinthians 5:18, Colossians 1:19-22 ), we do not.

Scripture never says no one values God's will at any time ever. Again it says the opposite many places such as Acts 10:35. The fallen men of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God, thus valuing His will.

Again, read the Psalms and Proverbs for a complete picture on the condition of mankind both with and without the intervening work of the Holy Spirit.

In addition, the fallen men of Matthew 23 are of two groups:

The Pharisees, who were trying to enter into Heaven by their own efforts, and those that are entering in by God's perfect efforts to save them.
The religious always hinder the saved by trying to place burdens on them that Christ removed through the blood of His cross.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in his finished work on the cross alone.
It relies on nothing except God's deciding to place His favor on someone, therefore it is a gift, not a reward.
I'm sorry that you do not seem to understand that.


This is my final reply to you in this thread.
May God bless you richly, sir.

 

[Van]

HI Dave,

A)God knew His people before He created them ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139:15-16, Isaiah 49:1-5, Romans 9:23, Galatians 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:19 ).

All those verses teach God's knowledge from conception. None support your premise.

B)
I see where you might be regarding some to the exclusion of others. List one verse I might be disregarding.

C)
The "gift of faith" prior to being chosen for salvation is an absurdity. We were chosen "through" faith, therefore our faith existed before our election for salvation.

D)
Yes God made (creation) vessels of wrath and mercy. Therefore not before creation.

E)
You say you see the lost unable to seek God, but I have provided several verses that demonstrate fallen people do at times seek God. Romans 9:16, Matthew 23:13

F)
Yes, God does the reconciling, that is not at issue. God reconciles us, one person at a time when He chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth.

G) Please provide reference to specific support for your views.

H)
The fallen men who were in the process of entering the kingdom were not saved, they were blocked by false doctrine.

I)
Election is based on faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13.) Salvation by grace through faith occurs when God chooses individuals for salvation by setting us apart in Christ based on crediting our faith to us as righteousness.

Yes, David, there is no need to continue. Thanks for helping me present my view on "Chosen in Him."

 

[Van]

As I mentioned before several passages preclude Ephesians 1:4 from being an individual election for salvation. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people. Thus we were physically alive but not chosen for salvation. Once we had not received mercy, but now we have received mercy. Therefore this passage precludes Ephesians 1:4 from referring to our individual election for salvation.

Next, God chose those who were poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. Thus we were in the world and chosen out of the world, rather than before creation. James 2:5.

And as mentioned before 2 Thessalonians 2:13 has us chosen through faith in the truth, thus during our physical lifetime.

The only view of Ephesians 1:4 that meshes with all scripture is "chosen in Him" before the foundation of the world refers to our corporate election, and not our individual conditional election.