Christ didn't use fermented wine?

[tragic_pizza]

Something brought up elsewhere, and would enjoy some discussion on this point.

While I have no control over the turns the conversation may take, my question is more one of mechanics than theology. I understand that many Fundamentalist Christians, including but certainly not limited to Baptists, believe that Jesus did not drink fermented beverages. My question is this: knowing that fruit juices, left to themselves, will ferment naturally, and that one must take an action like pasteurization to prevent fermentation, how did Jesus (and, presumably, His disciples) keep from drinking fermented wine?

Again, I'm not arguing whether or not one should ingest alcoholic beverages, just wondering what technology existed in first-century Palestine to help those who wished to refrain from alcohol.

 

[Charles Meadows]

TP,

Jesus did drink fermented wine.

Juice does have to be cared for to get wine - otherwise it just terns to vinegar-like nasty stuff!

But many fundamentalist Christians insist he used grape juice because they don't want to admit Jesus drank an alcoholic beverage. That's just silly - of course he drank wine. Everyone did because it was the one beverage that wouldn't spoil! And why would they have accused Jesus of being a "drunkard" if he never drank wine?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Charles, the vinegar comes at the end of the fermentation process; while I am not a winemaker I think that the fermentation process is fairly idiot-proof.

In any case, I understand your position, and am hoping that someone holding the other view will share.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Something brought up elsewhere, and would enjoy some discussion on this point.

While I have no control over the turns the conversation may take, my question is more one of mechanics than theology. I understand that many Fundamentalist Christians, including but certainly not limited to Baptists, believe that Jesus did not drink fermented beverages. My question is this: knowing that fruit juices, left to themselves, will ferment naturally, and that one must take an action like pasteurization to prevent fermentation, how did Jesus (and, presumably, His disciples) keep from drinking fermented wine?

Again, I'm not arguing whether or not one should ingest alcoholic beverages, just wondering what technology existed in first-century Palestine to help those who wished to refrain from alcohol.

Here it comes! And you will find them telling you Jesus became a man but not in the flesh of a man!

 

[music4Him]

From time to time I drink wine and I don't get drunk. Its called being a responsable drinker.

One place you see the drink called fruit of the vine and another wine so I can see how people get confused. In the OT where Joseph interpreted the dreams of the butler and the baker you'll notice that the butler pressed the grapes directly into the cup.

Gen.40:9-11
9 And the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, In my dream, behold, a vine was before me;
10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:
11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

So I guess its all how it is written in the bible on what people was drinking?

Guess that helped a whole lot as to find out if it was fermented or not? huh?

Music4Him

 

[The Undiscovered Country]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Something brought up elsewhere, and would enjoy some discussion on this point.

While I have no control over the turns the conversation may take, my question is more one of mechanics than theology. I understand that many Fundamentalist Christians, including but certainly not limited to Baptists, believe that Jesus did not drink fermented beverages. My question is this: knowing that fruit juices, left to themselves, will ferment naturally, and that one must take an action like pasteurization to prevent fermentation, how did Jesus (and, presumably, His disciples) keep from drinking fermented wine?

Again, I'm not arguing whether or not one should ingest alcoholic beverages, just wondering what technology existed in first-century Palestine to help those who wished to refrain from alcohol.

Here it comes! And you will find them telling you Jesus became a man but not in the flesh of a man! </font>[/QUOTE]Which would be Gnosticism and thus heresy. Anyone arguing from that posiiton needs to seriously think through its implications.

 

[Living4Him]

Contrary to popular belief, alcohol in and of itself is not sinful.

However, gluttony is a sin whether it is food or alcohol. Drunkenness is a form of gluttony.

The National Geographic channel did an interesting piece on the "History of Wine" I know many fundamenatalist agrue that in Jesus time they didn't have the technology to make wine as we do today.

Anyway, this story showed that the process has remained the same through the ages.

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
Charles, the vinegar comes at the end of the fermentation process; while I am not a winemaker I think that the fermentation process is fairly idiot-proof.

I thought that part (all??) of the difference of whether fermentation ends in vinegar or wine is the temperature at which the process takes place. Anyone know?

BTW, I think that William Patton in "Bible Wines, or the Laws of Fermentation" makes the argument that there were some ancient processes by which grape juice was preserved and fermentation prevented. At this late date (read it years ago), I can't remember what they were - perhaps boiling was one of them. Whether his arguments are valid, I do not know. The arguments, if valid, would mean it was possible to avoid drinking fermented wine, but not necessarily whether or not one did so.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
While I have no control over the turns the conversation may take, my question is more one of mechanics than theology. I understand that many Fundamentalist Christians, including but certainly not limited to Baptists, believe that Jesus did not drink fermented beverages. My question is this: knowing that fruit juices, left to themselves, will ferment naturally, and that one must take an action like pasteurization to prevent fermentation, how did Jesus (and, presumably, His disciples) keep from drinking fermented wine?

The first thing to observe is that rotten fruit juice makes a horrible drink and that includes simply setting out a cup of grape juice and letting it spoil for a week or two.

Making wine is a very precise art and requires intent to make something a person might actually "want" to drink.

The second thing to observe is that they did have a means of preservong grape juice for more than a day in the first century.

The third thing to observe is the Bible command not to drink that form that is alcoholic.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In our culture - powerful drugs like nicotine are "acceptable" for recreational drug use - as is the drug and intoxicant, Alcohol.

The fact that it is toxic (even in small quantities) should "help us" gain clarity.

The fact that in our culture we don't "call" it drug abuse does not change the name of the game.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The third thing to observe is the Bible command not to drink that form that is alcoholic.

Where would I find that command, Bob?

 

[liafailrock]

I don't know what methods were used (if any) regarding non-alcoholic beverages, but I found this interesting passage in the Bible.

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.... (DEUT 14:26)

Here's Strong's for "strong drink":

she^ka^r
shay-kawr'
From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.

Israelites were to only eat/drink clean foods. God pronouced strong drink "clean". Need I say more?

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:

I thought that part (all??) of the difference of whether fermentation ends in vinegar or wine is the temperature at which the process takes place. Anyone know?

Vinegar is produced by secondary fermentation in which bacteria convert alcohol into acid. All that's necessary is for the alcoholic beverage to be exposed to airborne bacteria.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by rsr:
Originally posted by rlvaughn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I thought that part (all??) of the difference of whether fermentation ends in vinegar or wine is the temperature at which the process takes place. Anyone know?

Vinegar is produced by secondary fermentation in which bacteria convert alcohol into acid. All that's necessary is for the alcoholic beverage to be exposed to airborne bacteria. </font>[/QUOTE]OK, then it would make sense that wine was put into skins. This protected them from airborne bacteria. This is fascinating if one does not subscribe to the idea that Christ never drank fermented beverages. rlvaughn's post hinted at a nonalcohol theory; I'd really appreciate hearing from some of you who agree with that as a tenet of faith.

 

[TP]

Greetings,

Personally, I do NOT drink alcohol socially at all. My last alcoholic social drink was in 8th grade and my mom allowed me to have that. However, Jesus did use fermented alcohol. When he turned water into wine, the Stewards comment about drinking good wine first, then bad wine was made for a reason. After a person has had some to drink, then the bad wine is Okay. My roommates in college did the same thing with beer. The first beers were very good, but after a couple the cheap beers became acceptable. The Stewards comments indicated that the people were drinking alcoholic beverages.

peace

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting undiscovered country, QB, Which would be Gnosticism and thus heresy. Anyone arguing from that posiiton needs to seriously think through its implications. Qe.

All I meant is, Jesus was (or became) a true human being who drank wine which is ordinary, earthly, 'human' stuff - fermented fruit of the grape.
The Word says, "Do not be all too holy."

 

[billwald]

I believe that the acid is produced when the fermentation takes place in the presence of oxygen thus the juice and yeast is placed in vats.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Bump for responses from those who believe Jesus never drank fermented beverages.

 

[Eladar]

Posted this in another thread, but thought if fit here too. Perhaps BobRyan will respond to it in this thread:

Do wineskins hold fermented wine? Here is a hint given to us by Jesus:

Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

It seems to me that Jesus' wine was fermented wine, at least the old wine was fermented.

Which wine is better?

Luke 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”

Then we have Jesus' first miracle

They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

If this was the best wine, then we know that Jesus created old wine, in other words fermented wine.

Then we have this from Matthew 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions.”

If Jesus was called a drunkard, surely the wine that he drank was fermented wine.

 

[BobRyan]

#1. Christ never said that HE drinks fermented wine and likes it better than juice. He speaks of others that are used to drinking old wine - liking it better.

You have taken this to mean that HE claimed that HE was used to drinking old wine.

#2. Old grape juice does not make wine.

#3. They DID have a way of preserving the Must of fresh grape juice for a year. Columella of Rome writes about this saying "That Must may remain always sweet as though it were fresh, do as follows...The Must will then keep sweet for as much as a year". (Columella, On Agriculture 12, 29, trans. E. S. Forster and Edwards H. Heffner, The Loeb Classical Library (Cambridge, Mass. 1955))

#4. Taking fresh juice and placing it in fresh wineskins will always burst the wineskin. (Job 32:19 points this out as does Encyclopedia Biblica 1905 ed. Vol 4 P 5315.)

Your attempt to read into this account - an alcoholic Christ, fails here.

In Christ,

Bob