Christ didn't use fermented wine?

[Eladar]

Posted earlier:

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard

Eating->glutton

Jesus said that he ate food, therefore they called him a glutton

drinking->drunkard

Jesus said that he drank alcohol, therefore they called him a drunkard.

Please explain to me how Jesus could have been called a drunkard if he never drank alcohol?

One other thing, where in the Bible does it say that one should never drink alcohol at all? The only way I've seen you do it is to twist the term 'drunkard' and put it on its ear.

I know I'm wasting my time here, according to Romans 14 I shouldn't be arguing with you on this point anyhow. For those who believe something is sinful, it is for them. Those of us who know better should simply not drink to prevent people like you from getting all bent out of shape.

 

[chandler]

First of all it IS just an assumption that Christ drank the fermented wine. Nowhere in scripture does it say Jesus drank this fermented drink. You are making fact out of assumptions here. You can clearly assume anything, but there is no proof that Jesus drank this at all.

Secondly, may I quote Prov 23:32" at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper."
I believe God has put enough common sense in each of us to abstain from handling poisonous snakes. If you handle them eventually they will bite; Even a toddler can understand this. Why would Christ partake of something that HE(being God) warned his people not partake of.

Also, just because it was a custom, or part of the culture back during this time doesn't mean that Jesus indulged. In fact if I memeory serves me correctly, Jesus was quite different than those in His time.

 

[av1611jim]

Couple of questions for you all to consider.
First;
If you saw me drinking a purple colored drink from a bottle commonly associated with wine, would you not assume I was drinking wine? Most folks with common sense would say yes.The problem is in the assumption. which is what the Pahrisees did concerning Jesus. They 'assumed" He was a drunkard since He drank some liquid drink with sinners. If I was at a bar and had a beverage in a glass full of ice, most folks would assume I was drinking a mixed drink, even though I would be drinking a cola with NO booze in it. Hence, to assume Jesus was drinking booze based on what Pharisees said He did based on their assumptions is committing a double fallacy. You have assumed a fact based on assumptions of His enemies.
Very unwise, to say the least.
Second; You say Jesus MUST have drunk booze because He said "The Son of Man came eating and drinking..." yet Jesus did NOT say He was drinking booze. He said He was drinking but not WHAT He was drinking. He clearly says He was accused of being a drunkard, but He clearly exposes this to be error by His comments.
Mt 11:16
¶ But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mt 11:17
And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Mt 11:18
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
Mt 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

We can clearly see here that Jesus is saying, "They say...but I say..." He is simply showing the falsity of the assumptions. It is a grave error to accuse Jesus of partaking of something which the Bible clearly condemns. Jesus said those of His generation did it, and now you all are doing the same thing.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[chandler]

Oh we know you are just ultra-intelligent my brother. Jesus never said he drank. May I exposit God's word and I enlighten you?
Jesus says that "the Son of Man came eatin and drinking" i.e. the style of His ministry was common, He took a place among the people. He continues"They say Behold a gluttonous man and a drunkard"; a more literal translation of drunkard is "wine -drinker". In the text the people accused him of both things, gluttony and drinking wine. He concludes by saying wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.

Because Jesus says that he ate and drank does not mean that he indulged in wine, he was comparing his style of ministry to that of John the Baptist. John did not eat and drink among them meaning that he did not conduct his ministry among the people, he was in the wilderness, V7; they still labeled him as not from God or having a demon. We know that wasn't true.

Jesus then states that he "ate and drank among them", he conducted his ministry in their midst. Because of this they labeled Him a man of gluttony, which was not true; and a man who drinks wine also which is not true.

The idea is that the people were accusing both of things that were not true. How could the text imply that Jesus was indeed a drinker of wine?
Might I add to look at the scripture quoted above in Prov. It seems that if wisdom is vindicated by her actions; we know Jesus was wisdom, in fact being God, the inspirer of Solomon, how could he forsake wisdom and stay away from drinking wine.

The only thing you have left is to say that in Prov's Solomon is not saying that those who are wise stay away from sine. In that case, we need to all incorporate "snake handling" as being a wise way to worship our God.
Yes that is absurd! Just as absurd of saying that Solomon is not warning us to stay away from fermented drink, just an absurd as saying that becuase Jesus said he ate and drank implied that he in fact meant fermented drink, just as absurd as saying that Christ vindicated His wisdom by consuming fermented alcohol among the people and being a glutton.

Oh by the way tolanswer your question why the people would accuse Him of being a drunkard if He did not drink the fermented drink; they made iot up! Just like the evidence persented in His "trial"!

 

[chandler]

sorry I can't type in a hurry. Glad my wife writes all my papers!

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
It is a grave error to accuse Jesus of partaking of something which the Bible clearly condemns.

There's no error in repeating scripture even if it's something you condemn, bud.

Proverbs 31:6 -- Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

1 Timothy 5:23 -- Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

 

[Link]

AV1611Jim,

I do not know for sure if you are a KJV-onlyist, but I am taking a guess based on your handle.

If you do hold to the illogical and indefensible position that the KJV is perfectly inspired by God just like the apostles were inspired to write the New Testament, then you MUST acknowledge that Jesus drink wine.

The KJV Bible says 'wine.' In English wine is wine. It 'aint grape juice. So if'n you wants to believe the KJV is the inspired translation, you need to believe that Jesus drank wine.

 

[Eladar]

Jesus said that he came drinking, therefore they called him a drunkard. Why wouldn't Jesus have simply said "I never drank wine, but they called me a drunkard anyhow"?

Why does 1 Timothy instruct us to drink a little wine? According to Bob, this is the same as saying drink alot of wine.

 

[chandler]

Again you miss the point. Drinking wine was not an issue or He would have adressed it. The issue was that he was stating the difference in the styles of ministry and relating the fact that both of them were accused of being or doing something they were not. Why do we assume that he was talking about wine. It was the people who brought up the wine not Christ!Again that is all you can say about the post; where is your logic?

So Christ consumes that which the Father warns about?

 

[Eladar]

. Why do we assume that he was talking about wine. It was the people who brought up the wine not Christ!Again that is all you can say about the post; where is your logic?

Because Jesus said "The Son of Man came eating and drinking"


Jesus did not say "accused of drinking". Why do you miss the face value message?

My guess is because it does not fit with your prejudice against drinking alcohol at all.

Where is the instruction to avoid any consumption of alcohol?

The instruction to not be a drunkard does not equal intruction to not drink alcohol at all.

 

[music4Him]

Just a question.......can't a person drink wine with out getting drunk? i.e. knowing when to cut off at a cup vs. a whole bottle?

Jesus was called a Nazerine too? Right? Is that the same as the OT Nazarite? If so, has anybody read in Numbers 6 about their customs? Read the whole chapter. (*note verse 20)

 

[Rookiepastor]

Music

Jesus was called a nazerine because he and his family were from Nazereth the city.

John the Baptist took the vow of a Nazarite, which is entirely different.

Jesus did not take the Nazarite vow.

Those customs would not apply in this case..

God Bless

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Just a question.......can't a person drink wine with out getting drunk? i.e. knowing when to cut off at a cup vs. a whole bottle?

A person can most certainly drink without becoming drunk. In my understanding, the verses quoted from Proverbs appear to have everything to do with avoiding drunkenness.

However, I think it is absolutely vital that a person who believes abstinence the only truly Godly path abstain, and do so wholeheartedly. I cannot in good conscience deride such a view; in all honesty abstinence is the single surest way to avoid drunkenness.


BobRyan, can you share the method for preventing fermentation that you metnion in your post? I'd always understood that, aside from pasteurization and airtight storage, fermentation of fruit juices was a foregone conclusion. I'd really appreciate any details you have.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eladar:
[QB] Posted earlier: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard

Eating-&gt;glutton

Jesus said that he ate food, therefore they called him a glutton

drinking-&gt;drunkard

Jesus said that he drank alcohol
</font>[/QUOTE]Wrong.

Jesus was found eating meals with the common people. It is the Jewish leaders that condemn Christ that make these slurs against him.

That is hardly the basis for claiming that "Jesus said he drank Alcohol".

Again - a stretch in your argument.

It is the same as the Acts 2 argument - where it is said that the disciples could not possibly be drunk since it was too early in the day for them to be publically drunk.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Christ did not violate His OWN Word! In Mark 7 we see Him condemn those who reject His Word. He claims in the Gospels to fulfill and abide by His Word.

Prov 23:31


31Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it swirls around smoothly;
32 At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper.

Would not drink intoxicants. Would not "look" with intent to drink intoxicants. Indeed - they are toxic.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Melanie]

I much prefer to think Our Lord drank wine which most likely was mixed with water. Hopefully, the wine killed the disgusting intestinal worm and disease that untreated water often carries.

God Bless

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Christ did not violate His OWN Word! In Mark 7 we see Him condemn those who reject His Word. He claims in the Gospels to fulfill and abide by His Word.

Prov 23:31


31Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it swirls around smoothly;
32 At the last it bites like a serpent,
And stings like a viper.

Would not drink intoxicants. Would not "look" with intent to drink intoxicants. Indeed - they are toxic.

In Christ,

Bob

Where do you get your information that wine is toxic?

Edit to comment: In looking at the verse you cite, I find that it's part of a larger passage which at least appears to speak not of drinking per se, but specifically of drunkenness. I hesitate to mention it, because (once again) it serves none of us if I persuade someone to go against their core values. rather, I heap condemnation on myself.

Please forgive the use of the NIV.

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaints?
Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?

30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.

31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!

32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.

33 Your eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things.

34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.

35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!
They beat me, but I don't feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?"

 

[semstudent]

Originally posted by Eladar:
Jesus did not say "accused of drinking". Why do you miss the face value message?

My guess is because it does not fit with your prejudice against drinking alcohol at all.

Where is the instruction to avoid any consumption of alcohol?

The instruction to not be a drunkard does not equal intruction to not drink alcohol at all. [/QB]

1. You have not proven your case, and seem very defensive. YOu have no proof that the word drinking implies fermented wine. Did you miss my discourse on how that Jesus would have to contradict His very nature(being God) to partake of something teh Father warns to stay away from. I believe you are missing the "face value" and are reading into scripture; a great hermeneutical error. Where is your proof? Prove to me that Jesus was talking about alcohol here. To do this you would have to deny the rest of scripture!

I'm sure glad that you are a mind reader and know my prejudices, in fact I believe you are the one that just pre-judged me. I do not have a prejudice against drinking. However, I do not believe that Jesus(God) would partake of something he warned against.

By the way was fermented drink all that they had to drink back during this time, no. Tell me that children and so forth drank strong drink? Give me a break guys your argument is weak and based on assumptions and reading into scritpure.

You are assuming that Christ was a social drinker. That is heresy! He would have to deny his deity to do so! Let me ask you again my brother do you handle rattlesnakes? I assume no, thouugh according to you logic I'm beginning to wonder. God compares alcohol to these creatures. God has given us enough sense to stay away from it, and now we have the Holy Spirit to direct to do the same. How could Jesus contradict His nature of being God and partake of something God warned about. He would have deny common sense, scripture, and His deity. No alcohol will not send you to hell, it may not even be a sin to consume it without getting drunk. But there is a reason God told us to stay away from it; he also says that those who do are wise. The bible also says do not be wise in our own eyes. So I will take the Word of God over yours and consider myself wise and any other person wise to stay awway from it!

 

[Gwyneth]

take a cluster of really ripe red/ green grapes into a warm room/area crush them with your hands/feet/juicer, and watch what happens immediately.
The ripe fruit has a `bloom` on it like a greyish powder ( this is natural yeast ) the juice contains natural sugars........ yeast+ sugar + alcohol. In the warm place, the resulting mixture of sugar and yeast will begin to ferment at once and .... Yes .... I have tried this experiment, last summer , in my warm kitchen to prove the point to someone.

 

[Eladar]

You are assuming that Christ was a social drinker. That is heresy! He would have to deny his deity to do so!

You can't argue with that. Well, actually you can, but to due so would be fruitless.