Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder

[jdlongmire]

You have a real problem with calling people fools and insulting those who don't agree with you. You need to grow up.

Christ reserved His harshest criticisms for those expounding their knowledge without understanding.

Many "true exegetes" disagree with Calvin. That means squat. Anyone can cut and paste theologians' beliefs.

Please prove your assertion concerning the scripture referenced.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

Please prove your assertion concerning the scripture referenced.

What is the assertion? What would a 'proof' look like? If you really mean: "You can't possibly prove that to me." please post: ""You can't possibey prove that to me!" Thank you for your help.


For example. I believe that NIV is a part of ALL SCRIPTURE.

So this verse:

2 Ti 3:16-17(KJV1611 Edition):
All Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse,
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished vnto all good workes.

Means:

The NIV is giuen by inspiration of God, & is profitable for doctrine, for reproofe, for correction, for instrution in righteousnesse,
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished vnto all good workes.

To me this is an adequate form of a proof. This proves that the NIV was inspired by God & is profitable. Other people may have other forms of proof. Some people don't believe the NIV so they won't 'buy into' my proof. That is why I ask. Saint Webdog* the Great has made I statement with which I agree and can prove.

* Footnote:
'Webdog' backwards is 'god bew'

 

[webdog]

Christ reserved His harshest criticisms for those expounding their knowledge without understanding.

You are not Christ.

 

[Rubato 1]

Anybody mind if I break out in a great big yodel?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Anybody mind if I break out in a great big yodel?

Works for me:wavey:

Can you yodel different styles? Bulgarian? Swiss? Bavarian? Arkansaw? Peruvian? Hungarian? Finnish?

 

[Rubato 1]

Works for me:wavey:

Can you yodel different styles? Bulgarian? Swiss? Bavarian? Arkansaw? Peruvian? Hungarian? Finnish?

European: Little -old-laDY-whooo.

Peruvian: Chiqita-abuelita-quien.

Arkansaw: Lil' ole lady, Ooo.

Finnish: Ok. I'm finnished

 

[jdlongmire]

You are not Christ.

I am a "little Christ"...

 

[jdlongmire]

What is the assertion? What would a 'proof' look like? If you really mean: "You can't possibly prove that to me." please post: ""You can't possibey prove that to me!" Thank you for your help.

Thanks for the completely irrelevant post - to draw the reader's attention back to the original discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
...or John 10 needs to be read in light of Matthew 15. Matthew tells us who the sheep are...John expands that there are others, but he does NOT state they are gentiles. That's eisegesis.


webdog - you are moving into silliness, now. Please go read the true exegetes before you make yourself look more foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Calvin
16. And I have other sheep. Though some refer this indiscriminately to all, both Jews and Gentiles, who were not yet disciples of Christ, yet I have no doubt that he had in his eye the calling of the Gentiles. For he gives the appellation fold to the assemblage of the ancient people, by which they were separated from the other nations of the world, and united into one body as the heritage of God. The Jews had been adopted by God in such a manner, that he surrounded them with certain enclosures, which consisted of rites and ceremonies, that they might not be confounded with unbelievers, though the door of the fold was the gracious covenant of eternal life confirmed in Christ. For this reason he calls those sheep which had not the same mark, but belonged to a different class, other sheep. In short, the meaning is, that the pastoral office of Christ is not confined within the limits of Judea, but is far more extensive.



From here

to which webdog replied:

Many "true exegetes" disagree with Calvin. That means squat. Anyone can cut and paste theologians' beliefs.

I simply asked him to back up his statement with proof.

 

[Rippon]

I brought this up in another thread which had veered off-course.

I was emphasizing that the Bible places a value on words. There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.

Hebrews 13:20:"Now may the God of peace -- who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, and ratified an eternal covenant with his blood" ( NLTse )

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says. The ones He does not know are the goats. Christ did not die for the ones that He did not know ( in an intimate sense, foreloved ).

Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!

Jacob was not any better ( in fact he looks worse ) than Esau.But God eternally loved the former, and eternally hated the latter.Let's review. Jacob=a sheep, and Esau=a goat.

There are so many references to the sheep and the Shepherd.Peter was told by the Lord three times to feed or tend His sheep.The Lord spoke of the one sheep that He sought at the expense of leaving the others behind. The examples can be multiplied.

The sheep are sheep before conversion.They enter this life under the wrath of God like everyone else. They are God-haters like everyone else. But, since Christ loves them, and has foreordained that they will believe -- the Father draws them to the Son.In their lifetime they are regenerated.

As I said, the sheep do not become sheep. The goats do not become goats -- they are presently.Remember,the sheep=the elect= the Church=the Body=the saints= His possession etc.

The Bible uses other designations for the non-elect in addition to the word 'goats'. It employs the words 'serpents','vipers','snakes', 'foxes' ,'wolves' etc. But ultimately there will be only two groups -- the sheep and the goats.

A sheep is one who is eternally safe in the loving arms of Christ where no one and no thing can separate us from Him.

Christ is not a Goat-Herder. He is the Good and Great Shepherd of His sheep alone. John 10:11:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."( NLTse, see verses 15,17 and 18 also).

I think this needs to be repeated. Yes,the original post was made more than three years ago. But that does not negate its value to current discussions.

 

[Rippon]

Ps., you have said many things which can't be found in the Bible, yet you deride those who ask you for biblical support for your fanciful beliefs.

I'll ask again, where does it say in Holy Writ that all people are sheep?

Where does it say in Scripture that goats are false teachers?

Where does it say in the Bible that all men are elected to salvation?

You didn't say it in this thread, but you insist that the rich young ruler was drawn, called and chosen-- but so far no scriptural substantiation of that assertion has been given from God's Word.

You glory in condemning those who differ with these and other cherished beliefs.You call those who want you to back up what you have said the wise of this world, but you profess to be are humble, lowly and right!

You regularly give mountains of Scripture which usually have nothing to do with the given subject-at-hand. It's as if the passages you cite are a cover for your misstated declarations.

Wondering if your opinions have changed in three plus years. Or do you still hold to what I adressed?

 

[psalms109:31]

Goats are leading poor sheep to destruction and Israel is the sheep who have gone astray. Gentiles are as the aliens living among the Jews who were included with them when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed and circumcised the males. The circumcision of today is that of the heart, that Jesus does when we turn to Him. As a gentile I was a dog begging at the master table and Jesus didn't turn me away.

We gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

We all have become one in Christ.

I do not pretend to be nobody. I'm still a dog begging at the masters table, waiting on my master return.

We are to love one another as Christ loved us and be one as Christ prayed us to be.

 

[psalms109:31]

Look up the Judas Goat

 

[psalms109:31]

Some are sheep, some of us are dogs, some are goats leading sheep who have gone astray to the pit of destruction.

These are hyperbole's right that teach us a lesson, we would know more of what He was saying if we lived during that time I am saying what goats was used for at that time, and what Israel teacher who had the key to knowledge was doing hidering those who were entering in which they themselves have not entered

 

[David Lamb]

I think this needs to be repeated. Yes,the original post was made more than three years ago. But that does not negate its value to current discussions.

I remember the thread well. I remember that you and I tried without success to get Psalms 109:31 to back up from the bible the claims he made, that 1. "goat" in scripture means a false teacher, and 2. that everyone is a sheep until Christ comes in judgment.

I couldn't understand his posts, and he probably couldn't understand mine. :laugh:

But all that led me to wrongly think that it was his thread, when in fact it was yours.

 

[Rippon]

Certainly you have quoted the bible, but I must have missed the scriptural support for the two things I asked about. Perhaps you could help me by repeating the passages that give support to these two ideas you put forward:

1. That "goat" in the bible means "false teacher".

2. That every human being (apart, I suppose, from false teachers) is a sheep until Christ returns in judgment.

Jesus says that the goats are those who treat Him badly, and the sheep are those who treat Him well. Both groups protest, "Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty ....". Jesus answers those on His right, the sheep, "Inasmuch as you did it to the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." He answers those on His left, the goats, "Inasmuch as you did not do it to the least of these, you did not do it to Me." You will find that in Matthew 25.32-46. No reference there to false teachers, or to some sheep being turned into goats.


But when Jesus talks of "goats", He is not talking only about "Judas Goats", is He? Nor is He talking only of false teachers. Do all who treat the followers of Jesus badly try to infiltrate His church, like the "Judas goat" infiltrating the flock of sheep? Of course not!

And besides, what are you going to do with the clear words of Jesus in John 10.24-29, where He tells some unbelieving Jews that they are not His sheep?

24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."
​

Nothing there to suggest that they were all sheep until the Second Coming! No - He says to them clearly, "You are not of My sheep."

This is David Lamb's post number 41 in which he speaks clearly on the subject.

 

[psalms109:31]

I remember the thread well. I remember that you and I tried without success to get Psalms 109:31 to back up from the bible the claims he made, that 1. "goat" in scripture means a false teacher, and 2. that everyone is a sheep until Christ comes in judgment.

I couldn't understand his posts, and he probably couldn't understand mine. :laugh:

But all that led me to wrongly think that it was his thread, when in fact it was yours.

I really trying to find what the goats was and seeing how Jesus treated the Israel teaching and finding out what goats were used for at the time, it was an easy conclusion.

Luke 11:
52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

It is a hyperbole and it is what I learned from it.

 

[Rippon]

But what I am asking you is this: Where in the bible are false teachers likened to goats?


As I said before, Jesus did not say that they were sheep without a shepherd, but that they were "like sheep having no shepherd." (The KJV says, "as sheep"). If He had meant that they were His sheep, then every person of those multitudes would have believed on Him, for in John 10.27 He says, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."


We must preach to all that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners." We are to preach to all, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Nowhere do we read of the apostles telling people other than Christians that they are Christ's sheep already.


If you mean John 10.26, where He says, "You are not of My sheep," I wonder where it says that He only meant the Pharisees? John 10.24 just says that they were "Jews".



As far as I know, out of the 145 occurences in the bible, the only places where the word "goat" or "goats" is used to mean anything other than a four-legged animal with horns, are:

"I will bring them down Like lambs to the slaughter, Like rams with male goats." (Jeremiah 51:40)
​

(There it is referring to the Chaldaeans).
​

And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats." (Ezekiel 34:17) (There God is talking about His flock. He has already talked about the false teachers as "shepherds" in verses 2, 7 8 and 10)

"And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king." (Daniel 8:21)

" "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats." (Matthew 25:32)


​

In every other place, the word means an actual goat (apart, perhaps, from the Song of Solomon, with its phrases such as, "Your hair is like a flock of goats.") So I ask again, "Where, in the bible, are false teachers called goats?"

Are you saying that to understand the scriptures, I must believe that "goats" means "false teachers"? If you are, then you must provide some scriptural backing. Like the Bereans, I have "searched the scriptures" to see if what you have said is true, but I cannot find it.

Now you have me really confused! You have been claiming all along that that everyone is a "sheep" until the last judgment. Now you are saying that when Jesus makes that new creation in the conversion of a sinner, He is turning a goat into a sheep.


More than I think? Yes, in the sense that He can do so much that it is impossible for a mere human mind to encompass it. But I certainly do not believe in a powerless Jesus. He is the great Creator (John 1.3) and Sustainer (Colossians 1.17) of the universe. He had power to lay down His life, and to take it up again (John 10.18). He is the Victor over death and hell (1 Corinthians 15.54-57). He build His church in such a way that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (Matthew 16.18). He is the "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" of Isaiah 9.6. And so I could go on. I think you must have misunderstood something I wrote if you imagine that I believe in a Jesus of "reduced power". He is almighty.

What is the source of our faith? Ourselves? Surely not! Poor, weak sinners at best, we need God Himself to grant us faith. Paul wrote to the Christians at Philippi:

For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. (Philippians 1:29)
​

Lest you think that David Lamb has been putting me up to this--no he has not. I just think that this post number 43 of his was, and is,valuable to the discussion.

 

[psalms109:31]

24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."


I praise God it is also for dogs like me who beg at the masters table. I do not diaagree with the elect nor those who are being included

 

[Rippon]

But my point was that Jesus did not say they were sheep (His or anyone else's), but they were likesheep.


Do you really believe that Jesus could not, if He had wished to, call the Pharisees "goats"? He did call them "hypocrites" (Matthew 23.13), "sons of hell" (Matthew 23.15), "blind guides" (Matthew 23.16), "fools and blind" (Matthew 23.17), and said they were "full of hypocrisy and lawlessness" (Matthew 23.28), and ten times we can read His words, "Woe to you, Pharisees!" or "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees!" (And of course, those verses from Matthew 23 are talking about the time when Jesus was in Jerusalem, shortly before He was crucified).

Yes, all the world needs to hear the gospel message that whoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. But all sinners need to hear that message, and that includes those sinners who are false teachers. Nicodemus was a Pharisee, yet he heard the gospel, believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. The same with Saul of Tarsus and others. And there were plenty of sinners who were not teachers of any kind, and yet stubbornly refused to believe on the Saviour. In Matthew 11.20-24, Jesus pronounces woes on whole cities, not just the false teachers within those cities:

20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."


​

I do read my bible, and as I read it, I find that Jesus takes all kinds of sinners - those who taught wrong things, like Saul of Tarsus, those who did wrong things, like Zacchaeus and the thief on the cross, and those who had believed wrong things, like the two on the road to Emmaus, who imagined that Jesus must have failed, because their idea of Him "redeeming Israel" was getting that nation freed from the yoke of bondage to the Roman Empire. He takes sinners of all kinds and saves them. Praise His wonderful name!

This will be the last post in which I quote David Lamb (it was post number 48) on this thread. I don't want Ps. to feel ganged-up on.

 

[David Lamb]

Lest you think that David Lamb has been putting me up to this--no he has not. I just think that this post number 43 of his was and is,valuable to the discussion.

I can confirm that. I have not PM-ed Rippon at all.