Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder

[Iconoclast]

before him shall be gathered all nations

I don't read "saved" Icon, but "nations."

We do not read born of God, born again either but nevertheless it is the saved ,elect sheep that go into the eternal Kingdom as they are already members by the blood of THE LAMB.

Goats go into eternal torment:thumbsup: SG has again answered you flawlessly....I know you do not listen to me, but you should pay attention to SG as he is walking you through truth:applause:

By the way....Jesus only has to say something ONCE.......for it to be true and eternally binding....

ezk34
11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.


9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
lk19

Psalm 95:7

For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,:laugh:

Psalm 100:3

Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.:laugh:

 

[DHK]

What Jesus stated is that the nations will be before Him on the day of Judgment. Both saved(sheep) and unsaved(goats) will stand before Him. He will give each their just desserts. He stated “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.[Rev. 22:12,13] When Christ returns to execute this Judgment, His reward is with Him. This will happen in accordance to John 5:28,29, Rev. 20:11-15, Matthew 25:31-46, & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The judgment of the nations is very much different than the other judgments mentioned in the Bible. Many of the references here refer to the rapture which take place even before the Tribulation takes place. We are talking about different events. (1 Thes. 4:13-18)
However when you quote from Rev.12,13, and speak of Christ coming to execute judment, you speak of the Second Coming or Advent when Christ comes to save the Jews and destroy the enemies of the Jews. That is at the end of the Tribulation. The Judgment of the nations is still after that right at the beginning of the Kingdom.

Ezekiel and John 10 readily come to mind, mon ami. Then there is Isaiah 53, then there is “‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats."[Ez. 34:17] Then Jesus spoke of 'wheat and weeds' and what they symbolized. Then there was 'wheat and chaff' and what they symbolized.

What has that to do with
"You preach a literal 1,007 years between resurrections, and this, in my opinion, hinders your theology. In John 5, Jesus stated “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.[John 5:28,29]"

--You keep jumping around from passage to passage with no relevance to which you just posted. The judgment of the nations (1,007 years) and the mention of the resurrection in John 5:28,29 do not contradict each other, as I have said. So then you jump to other scripture which have nothing to do with what either you or I quoted above. Why all the rabbit trails?

It is of my opinion they thwart the 1,007 years between the resurrection of the just and unjust.

See above. There are two resurrections: one for the just (the rapture), and one for the unjust (the Great White Throne Judgment). A careful exposition of this passage in John 5 does not prevent this interpretation.

Non, monsieur, non. Read throughout Romans. Paul is talking about how those who were born as natural Jews thought they were automatically God's peoples, because Abraham was their father. They thought that God's promise to Abraham was through the flesh, when in fact, it came through Christ, Abraham's seed that followed through Isaac and not Ishmael. Not all of Abraham's seed(lineage) were Spiritual Jews. Those Spiritual Jews were those(both Jews and Gentiles) who had the circumcision of the heart made without hands. We can see In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ.[Col. 2:11] Those who have been saved make up true Israel.

That is not what Paul was speaking about. You have a wrong conclusion. We are not Abraham's seed!
Romans chapter 1 was addressed to the Gentiles or described the Gentiles.
Romans chapter 2 described the condition of the Jews.
Romans chapter 3 described the condition of both Jews and Gentiles together.
--Chapter two specifically addresses the condition of the Jews:
"Behold thou are called a Jew..." There are many direct references to the Jews, specifically to the Jew.

Non, mon ami, non. See my last comment above, please.

Your last comment:
Those who have been saved make up true Israel.

stems from a false theology known as Replacement Theology which is heretical. It was first put forward by the RCC and was entirely anti-semitic in nature. The church does not replace Israel, which your statement is the basic conclusion. It is wrong. I reject it completely.

 

[DHK]

We do not read born of God, born again either but nevertheless it is the saved ,elect sheep that go into the eternal Kingdom as they are already members by the blood of THE LAMB.

Goats go into eternal torment:thumbsup: SG has again answered you flawlessly....I know you do not listen to me, but you should pay attention to SG as he is walking you through truth:applause:

Why don't you hold your applause, read through the thread and think carefully about what SG said:
I was the one that affirmed that Christ was the Lamb on the cross slain on the cross before the foundation of the world.

SG affirmed that Christ was a goat on the cross. Do you believe that?
How can a goat give the "blood of the lamb"?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The judgment of the nations is very much different than the other judgments mentioned in the Bible. Many of the references here refer to the rapture which take place even before the Tribulation takes place. We are talking about different events. (1 Thes. 4:13-18)

only in your theology....for the rest of us it is the last day.

SG correctly posted this;

Non, monsieur, non. Read throughout Romans. Paul is talking about how those who were born as natural Jews thought they were automatically God's peoples, because Abraham was their father. They thought that God's promise to Abraham was through the flesh, when in fact, it came through Christ, Abraham's seed that followed through Isaac and not Ishmael. Not all of Abraham's seed(lineage) were Spiritual Jews. Those Spiritual Jews were those(both Jews and Gentiles) who had the circumcision of the heart made without hands. We can see In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ.[Col. 2:11] Those who have been saved make up true Israel.

you directly oppose the truth here;

That is not what Paul was speaking about. You have a wrong conclusion. We are not Abraham's seed!

We most certainly are.....Clearly you do not understand NT theology at all...

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


How can you even post this???? This is a denial of bible truth:thumbs:

Romans chapter 1 was addressed to the Gentiles or described the Gentiles.
Romans chapter 2 described the condition of the Jews.
Romans chapter 3 described the condition of both Jews and Gentiles together.
--Chapter two specifically addresses the condition of the Jews:
"Behold thou are called a Jew..." There are many direct references to the Jews, specifically to the Jew.

Your last comment:
Those who have been saved make up true Israel.

stems from a false theology known as Replacement Theology which is heretical. It was first put forward by the RCC and was entirely anti-semitic in nature. The church does not replace Israel, which your statement is the basic conclusion. It is wrong. I reject it completely.

You completely reject truth here because of your bondage to the false dispensational ideas you cling to. This is obvious here and almost all your posts. It is getting worse each day

SG is schooling you and you accuse him of error.....go figure....

You said this;

Why don't you hold your applause, read through the thread and think carefully about what SG said:
I was the one that affirmed that Christ was the Lamb on the cross slain on the cross before the foundation of the world.

SG affirmed that Christ was a goat on the cross. Do you believe that?
How can a goat give the "blood of the lamb"?

SG spoke of the typology of the scapegoat and you make like you never read Leviticus...the scapegoat spoke of the removal of sins.....I know you will not get it but others can read between Leviticus 4-16 to learn of it...
Parallel Verses

New International Version
But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

New Living Translation
The other goat, the scapegoat chosen by lot to be sent away, will be kept alive, standing before the LORD. When it is sent away to Azazel in the wilderness, the people will be purified and made right with the LORD.

English Standard Version
but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.

New American Standard Bible
"But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.

King James Bible
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

from wiki;

The scapegoat was a goat that was designated (Hebrew לַעֲזָאזֵֽל ) la-aza'zeyl; "for absolute removal", (ie for symbolic removal of the people's sins with the literal removal of the goat) and outcast in the desert as part of the ceremonies of the Day of Atonement, that began during the Exodus with the original Tabernacle and continued through the times of the temples in Jerusalem.

Once a year, on Yom Kippur, the Cohen Gadol sacrificed a bull as a sin offering to atone for sins he may have committed unintentionally throughout the year. Subsequently he took two goats and presented them at the door of the tabernacle. Two goats were chosen by lot: one to be "for YHWH", which was offered as a blood sacrifice, and the other to be the scapegoat to be sent away into the wilderness. The blood of the slain goat was taken into the Holy of Holies behind the sacred veil and sprinkled on the mercy seat, the lid of the ark of the covenant. Later in the ceremonies of the day, the High Priest confessed the intentional sins of the Israelites to God placing them figuratively on the head of the other goat, the Azazel scapegoat, who would symbolically "take them away".

Christianity[edit]

In Christianity, especially in Protestantism, this process prefigures the sacrifice of Christ on the cross through which God has been propitiated and sins can be expiated. Jesus Christ is seen to have fulfilled all of the Biblical "types" - the High Priest who officiates at the ceremony, the Lord's goat that deals with the pollution of sin and the scapegoat that removes the "burden of sin". Christians believe that sinners who own their guilt and confess their sins, exercising faith and trust in the person and sacrifice of Jesus, are forgiven of their sins.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ed...egoat-leviticus-16-by-dr-kenneth-mathews.html

 

[DHK]

DHK

only in your theology....for the rest of us it is the last day.

The rest of US??
Are you the spokesman for the rest of the board? Who appointed you?
Do you think that the rest of the board are all amillennialists like you?
Do you think a good many of them just may be dispensationalists, and you don't speak for them??

SG correctly posted this;

you directly oppose the truth here;

I directly opposed what SG posted because IMO, it was not the truth.
We are NOT all Israel's seed. That was not the point of Paul.
He was addressing Jews in Romans 2. The sooner you learn the context the better off you will be.

We most certainly are.....Clearly you do not understand NT theology at all...

So you admit that this passage in Romans two describes you:

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
--People call you a Jew.
--You rest in the law and not in Christ.
--You trust in God, Jehovah, and not in Christ.
--You think you know his will because you have been instructed out of the law of Moses.
--You are confident because you are a guide of the blind.
--You are an instructor of the foolish; a teacher of babes.
--You only have a form of the knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Remember that Christ is the way and the truth; you only have a form of the truth, not Christ himself.
--You call yourself a Jew, a child of Abraham, and so you are, but as Paul is saying here, you are not a child of Christ.

You completely reject truth here because of your bondage to the false dispensational ideas you cling to. This is obvious here and almost all your posts. It is getting worse each day:

I have answered them, and you are the one that is confused. Romans chapters one to three have nothing to do with dispensationalism. That is how confused you are. You can't even understand a simple outline of the book or Romans. Pitiful!

SG spoke of the typology of the scapegoat and you make like you never read Leviticus...the scapegoat spoke of the removal of sins.....I know you will not get it but others can read between Leviticus 4-16 to learn of it...
Parallel Verses

Go back into the thread and show me where SG referred to "scapegoat."
You won't find it.
You are just now bringing this concept into this discussion.
Even so, that is not what SG said. Go back and read the thread.
He said, inasmuch as he was called a lamb, he was also called a goat. He is called many things.
I replied that he cannot be a goat and a lamb at the same time.

Your defense is just wrong because you haven't read the thread and assume facts not in existence.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

That is not what Paul was speaking about. You have a wrong conclusion. We are not Abraham's seed!

This is what you posted.....this is a direct denial of Pauls teaching and SG's statements to you.....It is YOU who error once again.

now you seek to sneak away trying to change your quote:laugh::laugh:

I directly opposed what SG posted because IMO, it was not the truth.
We are NOT all Israel's seed. That was not the point of Paul.

nice try....but you are consistently wrong....

Do you think that the rest of the board are all amillennialists like you?

where did I say I was amillenial?

Do you think a good many of them just may be dispensationalists, and you don't speak for them??

there are some dispensational people who could offer a proper defense of that view here......

most who identify with the dispy view,cannot accurately describe the other views so they are disqualified to offer anything of value on the discussion of the different views. the just follow what they hear on the radio.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The judgment of the nations is very much different than the other judgments mentioned in the Bible. Many of the references here refer to the rapture which take place even before the Tribulation takes place. We are talking about different events. (1 Thes. 4:13-18)

The sooner you flee the 'rapture doctrine', the better mon ami. Christ has separated them placing His on the right(sheep), and Satan's(goats) on the left. 1 Thessalonians 4 is not the rapture as you state it to be. This is the returning of our Lord to execute judgment. You expect this to be secret, or that is what I have gleaned from studying this doctrine, yet graves burst open, people 'poof' and gone, yet it is secret? People will be driving all over the world, then 'poof' and cars crash, and it is secret?

However when you quote from Rev.12,13, and speak of Christ coming to execute judment, you speak of the Second Coming or Advent when Christ comes to save the Jews and destroy the enemies of the Jews. That is at the end of the Tribulation. The Judgment of the nations is still after that right at the beginning of the Kingdom.

Please monsieur,, run, flee from this doctrine.

What has that to do with
"You preach a literal 1,007 years between resurrections, and this, in my opinion, hinders your theology. In John 5, Jesus stated “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.[John 5:28,29]"

--You keep jumping around from passage to passage with no relevance to which you just posted. The judgment of the nations (1,007 years) and the mention of the resurrection in John 5:28,29 do not contradict each other, as I have said. So then you jump to other scripture which have nothing to do with what either you or I quoted above. Why all the rabbit trails?

No rabbit trails. It is your 'rapture doctrine' that is killing your hermeneutics, in my opinion.

See above. There are two resurrections: one for the just (the rapture), and one for the unjust (the Great White Throne Judgment). A careful exposition of this passage in John 5 does not prevent this interpretation.

General resurrection, monsieur, general ressurection.

Non, monsieur, non. Read throughout Romans. Paul is talking about how those who were born as natural Jews thought they were automatically God's peoples, because Abraham was their father. They thought that God's promise to Abraham was through the flesh, when in fact, it came through Christ, Abraham's seed that followed through Isaac and not Ishmael. Not all of Abraham's seed(lineage) were Spiritual Jews. Those Spiritual Jews were those(both Jews and Gentiles) who had the circumcision of the heart made without hands. We can see In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ.[Col. 2:11] Those who have been saved make up true Israel.

:thumbsup:

That is not what Paul was speaking about. You have a wrong conclusion. We are not Abraham's seed!

Abraham's seed is Christ, mon ami, who came through the lineage(seed) of Isaac. We are Spiritually Abraham's seed being grafted into Christ.

Romans chapter 1 was addressed to the Gentiles or described the Gentiles.

Errone', monsieur, errone'. Romans 1 is about both Jews and Gentiles, unless there are no homosexual Jews.

Romans chapter 2 described the condition of the Jews.

Yes. They were resting in their lineage through Abraham's fleshly lineage, Isaac, and not Christ, the Promised Seed.

Romans chapter 3 described the condition of both Jews and Gentiles together.

Yes.

--Chapter two specifically addresses the condition of the Jews:
"Behold thou are called a Jew..." There are many direct references to the Jews, specifically to the Jew.

And yet the Romanist stated But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.[vs 5] Why was he stubborn and unrepentant? But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.[vs 8] They were rejecting the prophesied Messiah. They stated “Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.[Jn 8:39] I used John 8:39 to show their rejection of Christ was during Christ's days and during the time of Paul's letter to Roman church.

They were resting in being born a Jew and not being 'born from above,' mon ami.

Your last comment:
Those who have been saved make up true Israel.

stems from a false theology known as Replacement Theology which is heretical. It was first put forward by the RCC and was entirely anti-semitic in nature. The church does not replace Israel, which your statement is the basic conclusion. It is wrong. I reject it completely.

Never stated such a thing. The church is an extension of Israel. The Vine goes throughout the world, grafting in the natural and wild branches.

 

[DHK]

Never stated such a thing. The church is an extension of Israel. The Vine goes throughout the world, grafting in the natural and wild branches.

The church is not an extension of Israel. The church and Israel live on side by side.
First. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul prays earnestly for Israel to be saved.
In Romans 10:1-5, he again prays earnestly for Israel to be saved.
Is he a fool to pray for something that doesn't exist as you suggest? Israel does exist. It existed in Paul's day; was not replaced by the "church," but existed alongside the church, as Paul was praying for their salvation. Or was Paul insane?

Second. Paul makes a clear delineation.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
There is:
1. The Jews.
2. The Gentiles.
3. The church of God.
--All three are mentioned existing side by side. The church does not replace, nor is an extension of the nation of Israel. Both concepts are wrong.

 

[DHK]

The sooner you flee the 'rapture doctrine', the better mon ami. Christ has separated them placing His on the right(sheep), and Satan's(goats) on the left. 1 Thessalonians 4 is not the rapture as you state it to be. This is the returning of our Lord to execute judgment. You expect this to be secret, or that is what I have gleaned from studying this doctrine, yet graves burst open, people 'poof' and gone, yet it is secret? People will be driving all over the world, then 'poof' and cars crash, and it is secret?

I never called it a secret? Who calls it a secret?
The rapture could happen at any moment. It is the imminent return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He will come as a thief in the night when no one is expecting him. He will come "not with the holy angels in the glory of his father," but rather, "to the clouds, in the air."
As the disciples saw him ascend up into heaven, so shall he come back to earth (in the clouds, but not in the glory of his father with all the holy angels).

They are two separate events. If you read the account carefully given in 1Thes.4:13-18, and then the account in 11Thes.1:7-10, you will realize that it is impossible for these two events to be the same. One is for comfort for the saints; the other is for vengeance on them that obey not the gospel. They are two very different Comings.

Please monsieur,, run, flee from this doctrine.

I would never flee from the truth of Scripture.

No rabbit trails. It is your 'rapture doctrine' that is killing your hermeneutics, in my opinion.

What the scripture teaches that I believe. My mind is not clouded by those beliefs which were just taught 500 years ago, or introduced into Christianity 1500 years after Christ was born.

General resurrection, monsieur, general ressurection.

There is no general resurrection. Even Revelation 20 disproves that. If you want to make plans to be at the Great White Throne Judgment that is fine with me. I don't plan to be there. BTW, a quick reading of Rev.20:10-15 will tell who will be there. One just has to read the passage to see. It describes then, the second resurrection.

Abraham's seed is Christ, mon ami, who came through the lineage(seed) of Isaac. We are Spiritually Abraham's seed being grafted into Christ.

Only in a very figurative way. Israel still exists.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--It was this Israel that Paul was praying for. The covenants, the law, the promises are still hers.

Errone', monsieur, errone'. Romans 1 is about both Jews and Gentiles, unless there are no homosexual Jews.

No, it describes in great detail the fate of the Gentiles who rejected God and turned to idols. It tells us plainly that they "had no excuse," but that is not addressed to Jews.

And yet the Romanist stated But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.[vs 5] Why was he stubborn and unrepentant? But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.[vs 8] They were rejecting the prophesied Messiah. They stated “Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did.[Jn 8:39] I used John 8:39 to show their rejection of Christ was during Christ's days and during the time of Paul's letter to Roman church.

Paul's letter was to the church at Rome, which I would differentiate from "the Roman church or the RCC which I don't believe was in existence at that time, just to make it clear.
Otherwise I believe I agree with this assessment. He was differentiating between the arrogant Jew like the Pharisee, who rejected Christ, and the true Jew. Nevertheless he still was addressing the Jews.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The church is not an extension of Israel. The church and Israel live on side by side.

I have shown you otherwise.

First. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul prays earnestly for Israel to be saved.
In Romans 10:1-5, he again prays earnestly for Israel to be saved.

But not all of Israel is Israel. The Romanist stated It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Rom. 9:6] This is where the Jews erred, mon ami. They thought Abraham was their father, being born after his lineage(seed) of the flesh, and not the Spiritual lineage(Seed) which is Christ.

Is he a fool to pray for something that doesn't exist as you suggest? Israel does exist. It existed in Paul's day; was not replaced by the "church," but existed alongside the church, as Paul was praying for their salvation. Or was Paul insane?

Israel was not reinstated until ca. 1947, monsieur. They were not a recognized nation for centuries, iirc.But their history I am rather weak on.

Second. Paul makes a clear delineation.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
There is:
1. The Jews.
2. The Gentiles.
3. The church of God.
--All three are mentioned existing side by side. The church does not replace, nor is an extension of the nation of Israel. Both concepts are wrong.

God has three covenants? If this is literally the truth you are stating here, He has a covenant with the Jews, the Gentiles, AND the church. He has ONE covenant, made with ONE people, His sheep, which is BOTH Jew AND Gentile, grafted into the ONE church, which is Christ's body, of which He is the Head of.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have shown you otherwise.




But not all of Israel is Israel. The Romanist stated It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Rom. 9:6] This is where the Jews erred, mon ami. They thought Abraham was their father, being born after his lineage(seed) of the flesh, and not the Spiritual lineage(Seed) which is Christ.

Israel was not reinstated until ca. 1947, monsieur. They were not a recognized nation for centuries, iirc.But their history I am rather weak on.
God has three covenants? If this is literally the truth you are stating here, He has a covenant with the Jews, the Gentiles, AND the church. He has ONE covenant, made with ONE people, His sheep, which is BOTH Jew AND Gentile, grafted into the ONE church, which is Christ's body, of which He is the Head of.

CHECKMATE:thumbs::thumbs::wavey:

 

[DHK]

I have shown you otherwise.

But not all of Israel is Israel. The Romanist stated It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Rom. 9:6] This is where the Jews erred, mon ami. They thought Abraham was their father, being born after his lineage(seed) of the flesh, and not the Spiritual lineage(Seed) which is Christ.

Israel was not reinstated until ca. 1947, monsieur. They were not a recognized nation for centuries, iirc.But their history I am rather weak on.

God has three covenants? If this is literally the truth you are stating here, He has a covenant with the Jews, the Gentiles, AND the church. He has ONE covenant, made with ONE people, His sheep, which is BOTH Jew AND Gentile, grafted into the ONE church, which is Christ's body, of which He is the Head of.

Try again.
You completely ignored the scripture I gave you.
You ignored the fact that Paul prayed for the nation of Israel--a nation that during his time--after Pentecost--Paul believed to exist.
Your conclusion must be that Paul was a lunatic to pray for something that didn't exist if the church was but an extension of Israel. Why pray for it then? Neither did Paul exist in 1947????????

Nor did you attempt to explain 1Cor.10:32
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Or can you?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Try again.

I did.

You completely ignored the scripture I gave you.

Nope.

You ignored the fact that Paul prayed for the nation of Israel--a nation that during his time--after Pentecost--Paul believed to exist.

When did Israel become a nation again?

Your conclusion must be that Paul was a lunatic to pray for something that didn't exist if the church was but an extension of Israel. Why pray for it then? Neither did Paul exist in 1947????????

Again, when did Israel become a nation again?

Nor did you attempt to explain 1Cor.10:32
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Or can you?

In this view, there are three covenants. One with the Jews, one with the Gentiles, and one with the church.

 

[DHK]

I did.

No you didn't.

When did Israel become a nation again?

Israel became a nation when God brought her out of Egypt and gave her the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, ca. 1440 B.C. She was a nation during the time of Paul in the late 60's. At that time, after Pentecost, Paul records Israel, the Gentiles, and the church existing all at the same time. Though history afterward changes, it is not history that changes the Bible. The Bible remains the same. If Christianity grew or became an extension of Israel it would have done so in the age of the Apostles and the Bible would have recorded it. But it doesn't. Therefore your theology is a man-made theology.

You are putting your own dates and times into your theology instead of basing it on the Bible. Paul states three different entities. If that is what Paul states then that is what there is. Why go with someone else's philosophy when we know what the Bible teaches.

Again, when did Israel become a nation again?

1440 B.C. is the date you need to remember.

The Lord never completely forgot his people. There are specific promises made to Israel that are still unfulfilled. Israel is a separate nation, and the Lord will come for her.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK





Nor did you attempt to explain 1Cor.10:32
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Or can you?[/QUOTE]


Unsaved Jews
Unsaved non Jews

The saved sheep...the church..Jew and gentile....

 

[SovereignGrace]

I directly opposed what SG posted because IMO, it was not the truth.
We are NOT all Israel's seed. That was not the point of Paul.
He was addressing Jews in Romans 2. The sooner you learn the context the better off you will be.

So you admit that this passage in Romans two describes you:

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
--People call you a Jew.
--You rest in the law and not in Christ.
--You trust in God, Jehovah, and not in Christ.
--You think you know his will because you have been instructed out of the law of Moses.
--You are confident because you are a guide of the blind.
--You are an instructor of the foolish; a teacher of babes.
--You only have a form of the knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Remember that Christ is the way and the truth; you only have a form of the truth, not Christ himself.
--You call yourself a Jew, a child of Abraham, and so you are, but as Paul is saying here, you are not a child of Christ.

Go down to vss 28,29 and you will find A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. The Romanist plainly stated that a Jew is one inwardly and not by the written code. There were many who were circumcised in their foreskin that died lost, mon ami. But not one who has been circumcised in their heart will ever die lost. The Jews were resting in their fleshly lineage that came through Abraham, but the true Jews come from Abraham's lineage, Christ being their Promised Seed, through Isaac and not Ishmael. Paul carried this same line of thought in Galatians 3, Colossians 2, and in Galatians 4, you can read of Hagar and Sarah's children and how we are now children of the free woman, which was the Promised Seed, Christ. All the saved of all time are Spiritual Jews.

So Paul refutes you in his writings to the churches of Rome, Colossae, and Galatia.

Go back into the thread and show me where SG referred to "scapegoat."
You won't find it.
You are just now bringing this concept into this discussion.
Even so, that is not what SG said. Go back and read the thread.
He said, inasmuch as he was called a lamb, he was also called a goat. He is called many things.
I replied that he cannot be a goat and a lamb at the same time.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2244533&postcount=122

Here is an excerpt from that post of mine, monsieur.

Posted by SovereignGrace


He(Aaron) is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.[Lev. 16:21,22]

This was a typology(as Iconoclast already has stated :thumbsup: ) of Christ as He was dying for our sins, after He tasted of the cup of death in the garden of Gethsamane.

Christ has had typologies such as:

--Rock in the valley of Sin/Zin: Exodus 17 , Numbers 20, & 1 Corinthians 10
--Tree of Life: Genesis 3 & Revelation 22
--Scapegoat: Leviticus 16
--Sacrificial Lamb: Revelation 5 & 13 & Exodus 12

So it is that Christ can be typed as a Rock in the desert, a goat dying on account of sinners, and as a Lamb.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.[Rom. 4:16,17]

How is it that Abraham became the father of many nations, when the only nation that he fathered in the flesh was Israel? Through his flesh(lineage) came Isaac, Jacob, the 12 patriarchs, and most importantly Jesus, who came through Judah's lineage. In the flesh, Abraham was the only father Israel has.


So how is Abraham the father of many nations when the only nation he fathered was Israel?

I am not bragging, and please do not take this as me doing so, but I have been doing some very intensive studying in Romans, having read it in KJV(at least 3 times I am thinking), YLT(twice at least I am thinking) and now in the NIV(starting my second time through), so I have a lot better understanding of Romans than you are giving me credit for, mon ami.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Christianity grew or became an extension of Israel it would have done so in the age of the Apostles and the Bible would have recorded it.

Ephesians 2:11-21; Colossians 1:24-29, not to mention John 10:16 ("...one flock and one shepherd").

 

[SovereignGrace]

:thumbs::thumbs:

Ephesians 2:11-21; Colossians 1:24-29, not to mention John 10:16 ("...one flock and one shepherd").

Yes.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Go down to vss 28,29 and you will find A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. The Romanist plainly stated that a Jew is one inwardly and not by the written code. There were many who were circumcised in their foreskin that died lost, mon ami. But not one who has been circumcised in their heart will ever die lost. The Jews were resting in their fleshly lineage that came through Abraham, but the true Jews come from Abraham's lineage, Christ being their Promised Seed, through Isaac and not Ishmael. Paul carried this same line of thought in Galatians 3, Colossians 2, and in Galatians 4, you can read of Hagar and Sarah's children and how we are now children of the free woman, which was the Promised Seed, Christ. All the saved of all time are Spiritual Jews.

So Paul refutes you in his writings to the churches of Rome, Colossae, and Galatia. .

Brother Sov,

This is so clearly laid out in scripture regarding who the true Jews are, but I am afraid brother DHK is blinded by his dispensationalist rapture glasses he has on.