Oh yes...:wavey::applause:it is obvious to everyone
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Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
Oh yes...:wavey::applause:it is obvious to everyone
("...one flock and one shepherd")
What is the connotation of that word flock relative to the one shepherd?
Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
John 10:16
Christ‘s use of “flock” (ποιμνη — poimnē) here is just another metaphor for kingdom (βασιλεια — basileia) in Matthew 8:11 where the children of the kingdom come from all climes and nations. See also the various metaphors in Ephesians 2 for this same idea. There is only the one Great Shepherd of the sheep (Hebrews 13:20), Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now I ask. Is that flock, "nation," with one shepherd the very same nation, "flock," with one shepherd spoken of in Ezekiel 37:19-28
to whom God did will to make known what is the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations -- which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory, Col 1:27
Read the book of Hosea to see who are the people among the nations that are the secret (mystery) among the nations.
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jer 3:14 KJV
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14
Questions? Are these firstfruits being taken and brought to Zion those who are to reign with Christ?
Reign over who? Will all Israel, the tabernacle of David be saved? Acts 15:16 Romans 11:26
Are those who reign with Christ the remnant of Joel 2:32 that is also relative to Romans 11:26? Verses following: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Did the tabernacle of David rule over, "all Israel?"
What about the residue of mankind?
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Could Acts 15:16,17 be saying the same thing as Eph 1:10 >That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Is that what God has made known to those who will rule with him?
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Yes Jesus rules as Lord right now and as the kingdom grows worldwide all of the elect sheep are being brought in .
Jesus in seeking and saving that which was lost no more no less.
Those passages from the Old Testament are all being filled as the gospel goes worldwide right now.:thumbsup:
This is delusion.
Satan is the "god of this world." At least that is what the Scripture says if you believe it.
He is the "prince of the power of the air," "the spirit that now works disobedience," etc.
IOW, Christ is not reigning in this present world; Satan is.
His rule on this earth is in a future Kingdom, a Millennial Kingdom, one that according to Rev.20:1-5 will last 1,000 years. But for those who don't take the Bible seriously for what it says, and just simply dismiss it with plain unbelief they will never accept "what the actual words of the Scripture" say.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother DHK,
He is victor already now. He is victor in this world.
It is the clear testimony of the Bible.
In His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, He has become the Lord. He sits now at God's right hand. He wields the power of providence, upholding and governing all things (Eph. 1:19-23; Heb. 1:3; Rev. 5).
Jesus Christ is victor as Mediator of the covenant and Head of the church. By His atoning death and bodily resurrection, He has conquered sin, Satan, death, and the ungodly world and has become the sovereign, almighty, life-giving Lord on behalf of His church.
His church on earth is a victorious institution. She is indestructible. She cannot be defeated by her foes. "I will build my church," said the Christ, the Son of the livmg God, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).
The church accomplishes her ecclesiastical calling and labor with unique, awesome power, and without fail. "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19).
Each member of the church is victorious by the indwelling, empowering Christ. Here and now. Indeed, he is not merely a conqueror. He is more than a conqueror (Rom. 8:37). His many enemies are made in the end to work his good. The assurance of this is the strength and zeal of the Christian life.
Jesus Christ has dominion.
Jesus Christ has dominion in the world in history.
Jesus Christ has dominion now. "
that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Peter 4:11) and "To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (1 Peter 5:11)
"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)
DHK
Your view is a bad delusion for sure. I will show you why once again.
The Lord Jesus Christ rules and reigns in the "midst of His enemies" Psalm 110
vs1-2
Peter declares this;
God hath made this same Jesus.....both Lord and Christ.......that is what I believe and confess....
you on the other hand continue to confess this-
Well...you have now gone and titled you post.
Your view is a bad delusion for sure. I will show you why once again.
The Lord Jesus Christ rules and reigns in the "midst of His enemies" Psalm 110
vs1-2
Peter declares this;
God hath made this same Jesus.....both Lord and Christ.......that is what I believe and confess....
you on the other hand continue to confess this-
Are all being fulfilled or just those that pertain to the firstfruits?
I know the Passover Lamb was slain.
I know because of the resurrection (see 1 Cor 15:17) the blood of the Lamb washes away our sins, That is, we are unleavened.
I know that at Pentecost following the resurrection the firstfruit of the Spirit begin to be shed on man to take out a people for the name of God. See Acts 15:8-15
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 5:9,10
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:32,33
Will Satan be bound from deceiving the nations following the feast of Trumpets? Is that what the next feast is about, the day of at one meant? Satan will be able to deceive the nations?
Please give this some thought. Thanks in advance.
The beginning of eternal salvation for man.
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. The firstfruits of the Spirit Rom 8:23
Then at the return of Jesus the Christ, when the trumpets are blown, the feast of Trumpets, at the last trump:
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:50-52 The redemption of the body Romans 8:23 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration; When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28
Is that when, "all Israel," will begin to be judged? What about the rest of man?
Does first fruit imply other fruit of like kind at a later time?
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18
Are the we, those presently being taken out of the nations, by God, and given the firstfruit of the Spirit?
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Are all being fulfilled or just those that pertain to the firstfruits?
I know the Passover Lamb was slain.
I know because of the resurrection (see 1 Cor 15:17) the blood of the Lamb washes away our sins, That is, we are unleavened.
I know that at Pentecost following the resurrection the firstfruit of the Spirit begin to be shed on man to take out a people for the name of God. See Acts 15:8-15
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 5:9,10
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, Acts 2:32,33
The beginning of eternal salvation for man.
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. The firstfruits of the Spirit Rom 8:23
Then at the return of Jesus the Christ, when the trumpets are blown, the feast of Trumpets, at the last trump:
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Cor 15:50-52 The redemption of the body Romans 8:23 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration; When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28
Is that when, "all Israel," will begin to be judged? What about the rest of man?
Does first fruit imply other fruit of like kind at a later time?
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18
Are the we, those presently being taken out of the nations and given the firstfruit of the Spirit?
Will Satan be bound from deceiving the nations following the feast of Trumpets? Is that what the next feast is about, the day of at one meant? Satan will not be able to deceive the nations?
Please give this some thought. Thanks in advance.
Yet God told him how far he could go with dealing with Job.
Until you realize that there is more than one 'world' described in the bible, you will end up with faulty hermeneutics as you did in the above post.
Satan is the 'god of this world', yes, monsieur. But the 'world' here is referring to the lost, the un-saved. As Jesus told His disciples If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.[Jn 15:19] We can read Paul's writing that said Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor.:1-4] Because of Satan, those who belong to him(cf. Jn 8:44),have been blinded by him. However, we can find where In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.[Jn 1:1-5] It is when God shines that True Light into the sin darkened heart of s sinner, it is finished, mon ami.
Look at the simile/parable of the sower and the seed in Matthew 13. Jesus said As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.[vs. 4] and then when He explained it to them, He said When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.[vs 19]
Unless God intercedes on the behalf of a sinner, Satan will take away anything concerning the gospel before it takes root in their heart.
Satan is over the 'world of sinners' and is the 'god of sinners', mon ami.
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Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
--Who did Christ die for. The answer is plain to see. He died for the sins of the world--not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved.
He is the light that came into the world, the light that dispelled the darkness of the world. It didn't happen in just one place. The light of the world means all the world.
Hello Percho,
Thanks for your interesting post. May I say before replying that I very much respect my Dispensational brethren and their love of the word even when I can't quite agree with them.
Thanks for your interesting post. May I say before replying that I very much respect my Dispensational brethren and their love of the word even when I can't quite agree with them.
I'm not sure it's quite correct to suppose that 'flock,' 'kingdom' and 'nation' must always mean the same thing. The Lord Jesus in John 10 is using the metaphor of sheep to refer to those for whom He would shortly lay down His life (v.15). He goes on to refer to sheep 'who are not of this fold' (v.16). 'This fold' must surely be Israel, since our Lord was speaking to Jews. Therefore those who are of the other fold who 'Will hear My voice' can only be the gentiles. When the gentiles hear, 'there will be one flock and one shepherd.' Therefore there is now only one people of God, not two- believing Jew and believing gentile in one flock. This is wonderfully supported by Eph 2:11ff. At one time (the O.T. period) gentiles were 'aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ' (vs.12-13). Notice that it is the gentiles who have been brought near, not the Jews who have been taken further away. It's not 'Replacement Theology;' its Inclusion Theology.
I don't have time to trawl through Hosea trying to find out what you mean here. A text would be helpful. But the point is that the inclusion of the gentiles was a mystery in O.T, times. Of course there were hints of it in the prophets (eg. Isaiah 19:23-25), but they did not understand the full import of what they were prophesying (1 Peter 1:10-12). It is for us who have the clearer light of the N.T. to guide us to understand that many of the predictions concerning Jerusalem and Israel refer to the New Jerusalem which is the mother of us all, Jew and gentile. For example:
The 'Zion' being spoken of here is not 'Jerusalem that now is' (Gal. 4:25) which to this very day is in bondage with her children. Rather it is the city which has foundations (Heb. 11:10-16) to which Abraham and all the people of God are making their way.
This refers to Peter's visit to Cornelius in Acts 10.
Yes.
Well, we will judge the world; indeed, we shall judge angels (1 Cor. 6:2-3). Yes, all Israel, all the people of God will be saved. But of course, 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel' (Rom. 9:6). It is believing Jews, along with believing gentiles who will be saved. 'For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly......etc.' (Rom. 2:28-29).
Indeed they are. But again the Jerusalem spoken of here is not the one that is spititually Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified, it is the Jerusalem above which is free and is the mother of us all.
The tabernacle of David ruled over all Israel in his day. The prophecy of Amos 9 quoted in Acts refers to David's greater Son who will raise up a Temple not made with hands, having brought in a circumcision not with hands (Col. 2:11-12). These things are spiritual, not literal. The only literal tabernacle that David had was the one made by Moses. Acts 15 is concerned with the coming in of the gentiles to the people of God. It is in that context that Peter quotes from Amos 9. The tabernacle of David is joined with the residue of mankind. One people of God. Believing Jew and believing gentile together. The middle wall of separation broken down. Wonderful!
percho
All have begun to be fulfilled....It was planned in eternity past, but in the fullness of time God has entered into His own creation in the incarnation to accomplish redemption.
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us
Jesus is the True Exodus all the types are fulfilled in Him.
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. The firstfruits of the Spirit Rom 8:23
:thumbsup:
All Israel is being saved....first the elect remnant of jews, gentiles grafted in now, then more jews right before the last day.
The sheep are predestined to be conformed to His Image. Goats are not.
The Spirit unites us to Christ.
Satan is bound since the cross as the gospel goes worldwide.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
All have begun to be fulfilled....It was planned in eternity past, but in the fullness of time God has entered into His own creation in the incarnation to accomplish redemption.
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us
Jesus is the True Exodus all the types are fulfilled in Him.
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. The firstfruits of the Spirit Rom 8:23
:thumbsup:
All Israel is being saved....first the elect remnant of jews, gentiles grafted in now, then more jews right before the last day.
yes
The sheep are predestined to be conformed to His Image. Goats are not.
The Spirit unites us to Christ.
Satan is bound since the cross as the gospel goes worldwide.
no
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Hosea 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
Amos 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.
Two prophets, primarily to the house of Israel but inclusive also to the house of Judah sometime around 750 BC.
Are these two peoples the same and were/are they treated the same by God? Can you call both of them Jews?
Amos had this to say concerning them both around 750 BC.
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:2
What is the context of, "known," in that verse. Is it, "to know," as a husband knows his wife?
Hosea has this to say around 750 BC,
And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hosea 1:4,6
But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. 1:7
There sins are the same yet are they treated the same? Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
The house of Israel is about to disappear off the face of the earth, They will be among the nations, the Gentiles. God says concerning them.
Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Is the house of Israel after God said that; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:12 Are they lost sheep?
What do you think the house of Judah called them after God scattered them among the Gentiles, nations? Maybe foreskins? ἀκροβυστία, translated Uncircumcision.
Were they lost forever? Hosea again. 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel (The Jew who was in the land when Jesus was born and also those among the nations, Gentiles) shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Who? Who will be called the sons of the living God? The same ones who were told you are not my people and were among the Gentiles believing themselves to be Gentiles. They are lost. They do not know who they are.
The Shepherd and the lost sheep.
Amos 1:1 The words of Amos, who was among the herdmen of Tekoa, which he saw concerning Israel in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash king of Israel, two years before the earthquake.
Two prophets, primarily to the house of Israel but inclusive also to the house of Judah sometime around 750 BC.
Are these two peoples the same and were/are they treated the same by God? Can you call both of them Jews?
Amos had this to say concerning them both around 750 BC.
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:2
What is the context of, "known," in that verse. Is it, "to know," as a husband knows his wife?
Hosea has this to say around 750 BC,
And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hosea 1:4,6
But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. 1:7
There sins are the same yet are they treated the same? Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
The house of Israel is about to disappear off the face of the earth, They will be among the nations, the Gentiles. God says concerning them.
Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Is the house of Israel after God said that; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:12 Are they lost sheep?
What do you think the house of Judah called them after God scattered them among the Gentiles, nations? Maybe foreskins? ἀκροβυστία, translated Uncircumcision.
Were they lost forever? Hosea again. 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel (The Jew who was in the land when Jesus was born and also those among the nations, Gentiles) shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Who? Who will be called the sons of the living God? The same ones who were told you are not my people and were among the Gentiles believing themselves to be Gentiles. They are lost. They do not know who they are.
The Shepherd and the lost sheep.
DHK,
You still have not addressed a question I posed to you:
How is Abraham the 'father of many nations', when he only fathered Israel?
You still have not addressed a question I posed to you:
How is Abraham the 'father of many nations', when he only fathered Israel?
Abraham.
DHK stated we were not of Abraham's seed. This is why I have asked him three times...I think...how can Abraham be the 'father of many nations' if he only fathered Israel?