You may perhaps find this interesting:
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/24/the-covenants-iv-the-abrahamic-covenant/
The bit about Ishmael is half way down.
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Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/09/24/the-covenants-iv-the-abrahamic-covenant/
The bit about Ishmael is half way down.
Where is the specific question you want answered?
Abraham is the father of the Jews, as Christ claimed.
Christ said to the Samaritan woman: "Salvation is of the Jews."
The Jews always claimed Abraham as their father.
The believing Gentiles can only claim Abraham as their father in a very limited spiritual sense--only identifying with him as those that also believe by faith. We have no relationship with Abraham. The relationship is metaphorical, not real.
Rom 4:17
(17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
First, the statement is parenthetical.
Second, the entire chapter is about Abraham: both verse 15 and 18 are about Abraham.
Third, this is a reference simply in passing recognizing that the promise in Genesis 17 was fulfilled through faith. God's intention was always to honor faith wherever he found it.
Thanks for the link.
I'm no expert on the various ins-and-outs of Biblical "covenantism" (I guess that's the word for it, but I'm not positive.), therefore I'll leave it up to the ones who claim to be experts.
I still believe that Abraham was the father of Ismael because Genesis 16:17 says that "Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram," and Genesis 17:25 also says that Ishmael was Abraham's son. I don't think you can get much plainer than that, can you?
Ishmael may not have been the son through which God intended to bless Abraham and his descendants, but one would be hard-pressed to deny that Ishmael's father was Abraham.
Ishmael and his descendants went on to be the enemies of Isaac's descendants, and for the most part, they still are the principal adversaries of Isaac's descendants.
But one cannot deny the fact that Ishmael's descendants have played a major role in human history--not the kind of role of which I'd want to identify--but still an important one.
How long will Ishmael's descendants will continue to exist in human history is something I cannot definitely answer because I'm not the One who decides that matter.
As best I can tell, that matter is in the hands of a Power that is far beyond my mortal powers, and, therefore, I'll leave that up to Him.
This much I will say: Like it or not, Ishmael and his descendants have played a major role in human history--not a particularly good one--but still an important one.
'Nuff said!
He asked, "How is Abraham the 'father of many nations', when he only fathered Israel?"
I thought the Lord Jesus was the one who said to the unbelieving Jews, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.........You are of your father, the devil" (John 8:39, 44).
Not so, sir. 'Therefore know that those of faith, these [and by implication, no others] are sons of Abraham' (Galatians 3:7). 'And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise' (v.29). Unbelieving Jews can only claim Abraham as their father in a very limited physical sense. The true children of Abraham are believers, whether Jew or gentile. The relationship is not 'metaphorical' but real because it comes from God, 'who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things that be not as though they were.' As He told Moses, 'I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'
I don't know of anywhere that the realities of the New Covenant are made more clear than in Matthew 8:11-12. "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, even in Israel. And I say to you that many will come from the east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This was spoken to a believing gentile. Therefore those coming from East and West are believers, both Jews and gentiles, and the 'sons' are the unbelieving Jews. The context demands it.
Are you claiming that the people of Ephesus in the 1st Century were actually Israelites? I think you will be hard pressed to prove that. Although Ephesus is situated in modern-day Turkey, it was founded by Greeks and the vast majority of them would have been of Greek extraction.Percho said:
Barnes says of Gen.17:6-9:
Believers today are related only to Abraham by faith.
However, Abraham was the father of many nations, as can seen from the information given above. We do not have any direct link to Abraham, but it is possible that the Arabs, through Ishmael do.
I fail to see your objection. Jesus was a Jew. David was a Jew. Abraham was the father of the Jewish nation or Israel to be more specific. Jesus himself said: "Salvation is of the Jews." What is your objection? Do you deny history?
--You expect to jump 22 verses and still be in the same context? I don't think so! How about quoting verse 6 before you quote verse 7 just to give the context of this verse which you gave without context.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
--"Therefore" connects the two verses together.
The righteousness that Abraham had came via faith.
Therefore, you who are believers today gain righteous the same way: through faith. There is no other connection than that. That is the point Paul is making. He is not saying you are "a child of Abraham." He is saying that as Abraham trusted the Lord by faith, that is what you also must do.
The entire context was Paul refuting the false teaching of the Judaizing teachers who taught that the keeping of the law and circumcision were necessary for salvation.
The "promise" is Jesus Christ. The connection is faith. The refutation is that salvation is not through the law, not through circumcision, not through the Jewish nation, but through faith in Christ. He was battling Judaizing false teachers. They had no connection with the Jews. The only connection was faith in Christ (the promise). Keep in context!
If you look at the context Paul refutes what you have just posted:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
--There is neither Jew nor Greek..you are all one in Christ.
The only connection you have to Abraham is through faith, for it is faith in Christ that makes you a believer. Righteousness comes through faith. See Rom.5:1.
Jesus was speaking of the kingdom to a Gentile. It was pre-cross. It was a time when he normally spoke to Jews only. It was spoken as a rebuke to Israel, and those unbelieving Jews (the Pharisees, Sadducee, etc.) that surrounded him. It also demonstrates that the unsaved can exercise faith.
I will answer in this manner. I do not know. However I do know the following.
God stated the following.
Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:1,2
The only people on the earth God had an intimate relationship with were the children of Israel. The whole family brought up out of Egypt. He gave them his law. This was stated around 750 BC.
God said the following.
Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Jer 33:24
The house of Israel had gone into captivity in 721 BC and now the house of Judah is about to go into captivity. The two families. Two fold of sheep.
Now, way back in Deuteronomy God made another statement. A prophesy.
I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Deut, 32:26
Let me ask a few questions. Has the remembrance of the house of Judah ceased from among men? Has not the house of Judah, the Jews been known as to who they are and persecuted throughout their history? How? Is it not primarily because of their law? Does not the very Sabbath mark them as being of the house of Judah, the Jews? Do not their feasts, the feasts of the Lord, mark them as being of the house of Judah, the Jews?
When the house of Israel seceded form the nation, what was one of the very first things king Jeroboam of Nebat did and all the following kings follow him in his sin?
He set up idols and:
And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.
He changed the Sabbath feast and the priests.
God scattered them and the remembrance of them ceased from men. They gave up their identity with their God.
Now relative to that above consider the verses where Jesus speaks of the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Or the sheep not of the fold of the house od Judah. Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, Heb. 7:14 Sprang out of. Born of. He came (was born) unto his own, the house of Judah, and his own knew him not.
Consider: John 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, (lit Greeks) and teach the Gentiles (lit Greeks)?
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. Some of the house of Judah also did not return from Babylon, yet they kept their identity such as the Jews in Rome
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
It is you who is inserting the word 'only' into the believer's relationship with Abraham. The Bible never does that. If fact I will go further and say that relationship to Abraham by faith is the only one recognized in the N.T. 'For we [ie. believers]are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh' (Phil. 3:3). Paul goes onto to say that he above all people could have had confidence in his lineage as a Jew, but all that, along with his training in Jewish law he counts as so much excrement (v.8) compared with knowing Christ. His knowledge of the Lord Jesus, which gives him a relationship to Abraham by faith, is all that matters to him.
I didn't know I was 'objecting.' I was pointing out that unbelieving Jews, according to our Lord, have Satan, not Abraham, for their father. I certainly do not deny history. Salvation is indeed 'of the Jews' (Rom. 4:22). The coming of the Messiah was predicted in the Jewish Scriptures, yet those same Scriptures also predicted that salvation would come to all peoples (eg. Gen. 12:3; Isaiah 48:6). Paul was also a Jew, yet he could write Phil. 3:3-8. Salvation has now come to all men (ie. people all over the world), and as Paul writes, 'there is no distinction [between Jew and Gentile] because they have all sinned (Rom. 3:9) and they are all saved in the same way (Rom. 3:22-24).
Indeed it does! I am very happy to look at the context because it proves the point.
But he is precisely saying, in those very words, that believers are children of Abraham. Your saying, 'there is no other connection than that' misses the whole point. That is the connection and it is the only connection. Believers are grafted into the family of Abraham by faith, and non-believing Jews have been grafted out (though they can be grafted in again if they come to faith). This is the teaching of Romans 11.
Yep! All agreed. But in that same context, Paul proclaims that 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free; there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus' There is only one people of God- believers. The old distinctions have gone (Eph 2:14 etc.). And this is not bad news; it's great news! We are all one in Christ Jesus. Alleluia!
If you look at the context Paul refutes what you have just posted:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
--There is neither Jew nor Greek..you are all one in Christ.
The only connection you have to Abraham is through faith, for it is faith in Christ that makes you a believer. Righteousness comes through faith. See Rom.5:1.
Jesus was speaking of the kingdom to a Gentile. It was pre-cross. It was a time when he normally spoke to Jews only. It was spoken as a rebuke to Israel, and those unbelieving Jews (the Pharisees, Sadducee, etc.) that surrounded him. It also demonstrates that the unsaved can exercise faith.[/QUOTE]
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Without giving it a lot of thought, I think I would go so far as to say the only one who would have to be of the natural seed of Abraham, was the one who was the faith of Abraham, that is the Christ the only begotten Son of God. Of course for that to take place Abraham had to have natural seed unto Christ.
As in: Gal 3:16 YLT and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ;
Actually the promises are to Abraham through his seed, the Christ.
For example, as Paul states in Romans concerning Abraham being the heir of the world; If his seed the Christ is not raised from the dead then Abraham would not be the heir of anything for if Christ be not raised then neither would Abraham be raised. Abraham would perish, just as anyone else being asleep in Christ. See 1 Cor 15:17,18 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
So also David for another example. If Christ had not been raised the following would be the state of David forever and he would be perished, without hope.
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29 KJV