Christ is the end of the law

[DHK]

He fulfilled every prophecy, every picture, allegory, etc.

Was the law, along with the Prophets and the Psalms fulfilled by Jesus? Isa. 2:2-4 and Micah 4 fortell the establishment of the Kingdom of God on this Earth, the millennial reign of Christ. To claim that Christ "fulfilled the prophets" is utterly ludicrous.

I would have assumed you would have stayed within the limits of an intellectual conversation here. But if I must clarify, He fulfilled every prophecy…that pertained to him up to the time He died on the cross. We all know that there are other prophecies yet to be fulfilled both in the Tribulation and in the Milennial Kingdom. I took it for granted that that was an understood fact.

the Sabbath which alone was given as a sign to the Jews--Exodus 31

The Sabbath was:
1) made (Mk 2:27) for

2) mankind


Ephesians 3:9, ". . . God, who created all things by Jesus Christ."

ALL THINGS were made by HIM - Jn 1:1-14

The Sabbath was MADE BY JESUS CHRIST! No wonder, then, He said plainly that He is LORD also of the Sabbath! (Mark 2: 27-28)

And your point is?
Yes Jesus Christ created all things. He is the Creator. As Jehovah He created the Law, including the Sabbath. What He does with it is His business, not yours. And it was his decision to give to Israel the Sabbath as a perpetual sign to their generations forever—a sign between Jehovah God and Israel of their covenant with Him. You can either believe the Scriptures on this or not. The choice is yours.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
DHK

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Please note that we must keep ALL THE COMMANDMENTS.

Your profile says that you are Brethren and your church is Gospel Chapel. Do you worship on Saturday or Sunday? </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, please don't misunderstand that we keep the Law as it is. We worship on Sundays and I don't see much problem with it as we understand that Early church gathered on Sundays too (1 Cor 16:1-2, Acts 20:7) Especially, we celebrate Lord's Supper on the First Day of the Week as we see in Acts 20:7.

No one could keep All the Commandments. There was no way for any Israel to keep the commandments all. That's why they needed the sacrifice. The sacrifice was replaced with Crucifixion.

Now the question is whether we shall follow exactly the Mosaic Law as it is. Answer is that we should follow Holy Spirit.

Then next question is whether Holy Spirit works in contradiction to the Law?

This need a little more explanation.
Even though I do not agree with Sabbath keeping, I have many truly born-again believers who keep the Sabbath and they live very sincere lives.

We believe that Holy Spirit who wrote NT doesn't work even today in contradiction to NT, and therefore we perform Lord's Supper every week, Baptism instead sprinkling, calling Brethren, and so on. But whether this rule can be extended to OT wholy or partly is a question.
Basic principle is that we should follow Holy Spirit, not the Law, but whether or how Holy Spirit guide us need the prayer and guidance in detail as I belive HS covers Law abundantly.

I am going out now so I just hurried to answer not in detail.

 

[wopik]

Hi DHK

And it was his decision to give to Israel the Sabbath as a perpetual sign to their generations forever......

And what are these Jews supposed to do with the Sabbath when they get saved and believe in the Lord ?


Paul, John, Matthew, Peter, Andrew were all JEWS. Did they keep observing the Sabbath Day as Christians? The NT does indicate that they did. And why wouldn't they. As you stated, it was a 'forever' thing.


"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. -- rom 1:16.


The Christian church is one body, one in Christ.


"a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith" - acts 6:7. Can anyone imagine these jewish priests NOT being Sabbath keepers, even as followers of their Messiah.

 

[wopik]

Eliyahu

that Early church gathered on Sundays too (1 Cor 16:1-2, Acts 20:7)

1 Cor 16:1-2 --

This was a normal working day, to collect and pack up the FRUIT which had been stored – laid by - for the poor saints in Jerusalem, who were experiencing drought and famine.

They needed FOOD, not money. Notice Paul had given similar instructions to other churches.

To the Romans, Paul says, “But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it has pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia [where the Corinthian Church was located] to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem…..When therefore, I have performed this and have sealed to them THIS FRUIT, I will come by you into Spain” (Romans 15: 25-28).

“And when I come, whomsoever you shall approve by your letters, THEM will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. And if it be meet that I go also, they [more than one] shall go with me” (1 Cor. 16:3-4).

Apparently, it was going to require several men to carry this collection, gathered and stored up, to Jerusalem.

 

[wopik]

The record of the New Testament is that the first Christians, guided by the twelve Apostles, continued to follow the same pattern, the same times for worship, observed in ancient Israel.

They "feared God and kept his commandments" - -they had respect for Him and were in awe of His sovereign authority to set the pattern of worship for His people.


http://www.abcog.org/basics8.htm

--

 

[Eliyahu]

I believe that Paul, Peter, John, didn't eat pork meat as we see Paul's confession in Rom 14, 1 Cor 8:13.

I don't think that Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, Timothy worked on Saturdays.

Should we blame them as legalists? NO.
But the main stream is to follow Holy Spirit, then we will follow the way of ALL the Commandments, not the partial commandments.

I think HS works out in a certain way for us to accomplish all the commandments in a very solid way, removing the grievous sins first, like murder, adultery, hatred, swearing, stealing, cheating, etc. and in the church life, after being born-again, Baptism, calling Brethren and Sisters, Lord-supper, Head-covering, Sovereignty of Holy Spirit over the pulpit, Everyone as priest, multiple elders and deacons as stated in 1 Tim 3:1-11, so that Holy Spirit may establish the church which Jesus loved so much that He died for her as His Bride.

In NT we can notice that Tithe has changed a little as we can see in 2 Cor 8 and 9 (especially 9:7)and 1 Cor 16:1-2.

Important point is that we should not abolish the Law at our discretion. Tithe, Sabbath Day, Church temple, Feasts all indicated Jesus Christ.

 

[Eliyahu]

 

[Eliyahu]

wopik,

I do repect the believers who gather together on Saturdays as I have good fellowship with Messianic Jews who keeps Sabbath, and I respect and love them.

But Acts 20:7 tells us that they gathered on the first day of the week to celebrate Lord's Supper.

This is why we celebrate the Lord's Supper on the first day of the week.

Jesus showed up again on the eighth day as we see John 20:26, 20:19.

Also, importance is that Jesus Christ himself is the Sabbath as we read in Mt 12.

 

[wopik]

Hi Eliyahu

But Acts 20:7 tells us that they gathered on the first day of the week to celebrate Lord's Supper.

That's what the preachers like to tell us; need to tell themselves.

There is no discussion of wine or passing around the CUP.

Acts 20:7-11 is more of a one-of-a-kind extraordinary occasion than a habitual custom.

The impending departure of the apostle, may have united the little Church in a brotherly parting-meal, on the occasion of which the apostle delivered his last address, although there was no particular celebration of a Sunday in the case


Paul and his friends could not, as good Jews, start out on a journey on the Sabbath; they did so as soon after it as was possible, v.11, at dawn on the 'first day' - the Sabbath having ended at sunset.

[ January 21, 2006, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]

 

[Eliyahu]

Acts 20:6 tells us that they waited awhile until the first day of the week.

Some Jews say that Acts 20:7 is the Habdallah not the Lord's Supper. I interpret Rev 1:10 as the first day of the week.

I agree that Sunday became important since Constantine declared it as Holy Day since 321 AD.

 

[wopik]

Acts 20:6 indicates that Paul and Luke were still keeping Passover (nisan 14) and the Days of Unleavened Bread.


I interpret Rev. 1:10 to mean "the day of the Lord" ----- not any particular day of the week.


In Revelation, John is describing the end-time, when the moon becomes as blood AND the sun becomes black like sackcloth AND the stars fall from heaven (rev 6:12-13) .


"....the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining" --- Joel 2:11 -- day of the LORD (Lord's Day).


Day of the LORD -- Zephaniah

--

 

[wopik]

I agree that Sunday became important since Constantine declared it as Holy Day since 321 AD.

http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=164

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by wopik:
Then why does Paul tell jews and gentiles alike to keep the Commandments of God (1cor. 7:19).


The fact that Paul expected Gentiles to keep the law is demonstrated in many scriptures throughout the book of Romans (e.g. Rom. 3:31; 7:12, 22; etc.)


Romans 2:25-29 is especially interesting and direct, though often overlooked. Here uncircumcised Gentiles are admonished to be circumcised of the heart (v. 29) and to become Jews inwardly by keeping "the righteousness of the law" (v. 26) and by fulfilling the law (v. 27).

Indeed - good points all!

In fact the Heb 8 rendition of the New Covenant SHOWS the continue role of the Law of God as it continues to be written on the heart through the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:

Some of your references to the Gentiles keeping the law are to the moral law (as in the Ten Commandments) which we are required to do ...

Well that much is true.

When Christ says PRECROSS "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" there can be no doubt about those Ten Commandments.

When the NT Authors write that same statement about Keeping God's commandments in their POST-Cross gospel accounts (as in the book of John) it is worth "noting".

When they do the same thing in their letters to the church regarding the "commandments of God" 1Cor 7 - Rev 12 -- it is worth noting.

But When Paul claims that our faith further "ESTABLISHES" the LAW of God rather than abolishing "terminating it" as some on this thread had hoped he might have said - we have all excuses removed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:
Christ fulfilled the law. He met God's requirement for the penalty of our sin, thus fulfilling the demands or requirements that the law set forth. If he didn't fulfill the law, why are you not bringing forth daily sacrificing to the Levitical priests that they may offer them on your behalf?

Why are you not keeping all the Levitical laws written in the Book of Leviticus?
The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin. But the sacrifice of Christ once and for all did take away sin. Why? He fulfilled the demand of the law in doing so.
DHK

Christ perfectly "fulfilled" the law of Lev 19:18 to "Love your neighbor".

Christ perfectly "fulfilled" the law of Deut 6:5 to "Love God with all the heart".

You yourself just admitted that God's Moral Law - the Ten Commnandments are still binding.

In Eph 6 God tells us to obey the 5th commandment within the Ten Commandments "As the FIRST commandment with a promise" even though it too was "perfectly fulfilled by Christ".

When God decides to "put a stop" to a law (like the sacrifices for example) He does not leave us to "guess". Rather HE SAYS it explicitly!!

(Some have supposed that if we do not rashly trash the commandments of God then we won't know to stop sacrificing animals )

But Hebrews 10 has "Spelled it out in triplicate" that animal sacrifices have ended with the sacrifice of Christ! No need to dump the Word of God just so we can "figure out" what Heb 10 is already saying clearly!

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3596.html#000004


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Thanks to wopik and Bob.

It is quite true that Constantine was just a pagan believer and therefore he worshiped Solar god in fact.

But we have to be careful whether even Bible sometimes declared the eighth day as a Holy Day as we can see in Lev 9:1.

On 1 Cor 20:7 we notice that the purpose of the gathering was to break bread and then had a sermon. 1 Cor 16:1-2 tells us that they collected the money. So, on the first day of the week, they did the most important things for the church. Are they not sufficient to consider the First Day became important for the church ?

Rev 1:10 can hardly be interpretted that way.

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Cor 20:7 in my previous post should read as Acts 20:7

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:

(In Acts 20:7) we notice that the purpose of the gathering was to break bread and then had a sermon. 1 Cor 16:1-2 tells us that they collected the money. So, on the first day of the week, they did the most important things for the church. Are they not sufficient to consider the First Day became important for the church ?

Rev 1:10 can hardly be interpretted that way.

Rev 1:10 uses the term "The Lord's Day" but the only definition we see for that is in Mark 2:28 "Christ is Lord of the Sabbath". If we let the Bible interpret the Bible we never see "week-day-one" assigned the title "Lord's Day".

By Contrast - week-day seven ("The Seventh-day IS the Sabbath of the Lord your God") is explicitly stated by God in Hiw Word to have an assigned "name" rather than just "Week day seven".

In Acts 20 we see that on week-day-one "Each one is to lay by himself" the amount of money reserved for giving. At the very least this is a private - individual system of "Saving" or reserving offerings.

If you view it as a lack of saving until you happen to be in church on "The Lord's Day" then what you have is utter failure to note that "Week-day-one is in fact the Lord's Day" as we see yet "another" reference to it as "week day one".

Furthermore the planning implied in Acts 20 does not favor the idea that "you do not reserve funds for offering until you happen to think of it at Church". Interestingly the entire reference weekly "gathering" is missing in Acts 20 - all you get is "weekly saving" on week-day-one. The silence there on "Weekly gathering" on week-day-one is deafening not to mention what a wonderful time it is to point to week-day-one as "The Lord's Day".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[wopik]

1 Cor 16:1-2 tells us that they collected the money

1 cor. 16:2 does NOT say anything about money!


that is a "fantasy" that has been drilled into our heads.


PLEASE read Romans 15: 25-28 --- IT WAS FOOD - FRUIT - that was being collected for the starving saints at Jerusalem.


This particular 'first day of the week' was a WORKING DAY to gather and collect fruit to pack up for Paul's trip.

 

[Claudia_T]

The End of the Law?

Has the Law ended because of Christ dying on the cross? Some do not understand Biblical language.

To the believer what does Christ become? "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." Rom. 10:4.

In what sense is the word end (Greek, telos) sometimes used in the Scriptures? Object, intention, or design? "Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord." James 5:11.

What was the object of the law? "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." Rom. 7:10.

What is charity, or love? "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom. 13:10 (1 John 5:3).

Why did God send His Son to the world? "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom. 8:3, 4.

Then what is one enabled to do through Christ? "That the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom. 8:4


Claudia