Christ or Will Power? Christ's Blood or Man's Ability?

[Eladar]

According to Calvinistic teachings, it doesn't matter what you do. The Elect are the Elect and it was decided before you were born. According to Calvinistic beliefs, the Bible is irrelelvant because God has chosen the Elect and the instructions in the Bible are irrelevant to know. If you are a member of the Elect, then you are saved. If you are not, then you aren't. It is that simple. No Bible is required at all. As a matter of fact, no actions are required at all. It is a lottery. If your number is called, you were fortunate. If not, then it is God's fault for not choosing you. Oh well, such is life. Anything we do is meaningless.

When Jesus warned people, he was just kidding. There is no need to warn people. God decided and people can't do a thing about it. When God asked people to turn to Him, he was just kidding because he chose the ones who will turn to him and those who would not. The world was fated before you were born. Play your part and go to heaven or hell. You are responsible for nothing. God is the one in charge of every decision and we are but puppets on strings.

If the Bible wasn't so strongly opposed to these concepts, I'd probably not really care about this life at all. Really, who would really care? This world would be without love. It would be nothing more than a movie.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Tuor:
According to Calvinistic teachings, it doesn't matter what you do. The Elect are the Elect and it was decided before you were born. According to Calvinistic beliefs, the Bible is irrelelvant because God has chosen the Elect and the instructions in the Bible are irrelevant to know. If you are a member of the Elect, then you are saved. If you are not, then you aren't. It is that simple. No Bible is required at all. As a matter of fact, no actions are required at all. It is a lottery. If your number is called, you were fortunate. If not, then it is God's fault for not choosing you. Oh well, such is life. Anything we do is meaningless.

When Jesus warned people, he was just kidding. There is no need to warn people. God decided and people can't do a thing about it. When God asked people to turn to Him, he was just kidding because he chose the ones who will turn to him and those who would not. The world was fated before you were born. Play your part and go to heaven or hell. You are responsible for nothing. God is the one in charge of every decision and we are but puppets on strings.

If the Bible wasn't so strongly opposed to these concepts, I'd probably not really care about this life at all. Really, who would really care? This world would be without love. It would be nothing more than a movie.

According to Calvinistic teachings, it doesn't matter what you do.

Though your sins be as scarlet...
removed as far as the east is from the west...
remember them no more...

seems to me this is according to the word of God.

The Elect are the Elect and it was decided before you were born.

True

According to Calvinistic beliefs, the Bible is irrelelvant because God has chosen the Elect and the instructions in the Bible are irrelevant to know. If you are a member of the Elect, then you are saved. If you are not, then you aren't. It is that simple. No Bible is required at all.

Though I do not know and bro. Glenn would be best at clearing this up, but I think this is why Primitive Baptists do not call themselves Calvinists. They certainly do not believe the Bible is irrelevant; I have a question for you; how much of the Bible is written for the lost and how much is written for the edification of the saints, the church? How much do you really wish to limit God? It is through the Word of God that the World and all that is was created.

It is that simple

this is why that children can understand it; now you see why I say in agreement with Paul that the word of God is not bound. The Bible is written according to what it tells us at 2 Tim. 3.16-17; note what context this is spoken in from vs. 1-15.

As a matter of fact, no actions are required at all. It is a lottery. If your number is called, you were fortunate. If not, then it is God's fault for not choosing you. Oh well, such is life. Anything we do is meaningless.

We simply agree with Scripture that if by grace then works is no more works, but if by works, then grace is no more grace. Works, properly viewed from the Word of God can only be spoken of after regeneration, anything prior to this is steeped in self-righteousness as the pharisees at best; and is unacceptable to God. Remember Cain brought his own offering, representing the works of his own hand and not the offering God commanded of an innocent substitute? How do you guys claim scripture when you leave so much out of your system? The word of God is whole, it is complete, it is in need of nothing added, nor tolerates nothing removed. Proclaim the whole of Scripture and witness the communion of your spirit and the Spirit of God.

In your last two paragraphs you digress so much into a seeming depression that I had to read it twice to understand any of it and I am still unsure that I gained any understanding. Before man can turn to God, he must recognize that God is true. He must first recognize that he is 'enmity against God.' Not that he is in danger of becoming God's enemy, but that he is proclaimed 'enmity against God.' Then and only then is man able to repent in Godly sorrow because of his helplessness and bondage to sin. Then it is those who have been shown their position in Christ who God says turn, turn. Those who yet are in enmity answer, from what? While his children know his voice and know from what, others wonder at the foolishness of this people who call on the name of the Lord.

Bro. dallas

 

[Eladar]

how much of the Bible is written for the lost and how much is written for the edification of the saints, the church? How much do you really wish to limit God? It is through the Word of God that the World and all that is was created.

The Bible was written for all. There are some who reject it. Hopefully everyone is blessed by it through the salt of the earth.

I don't limit God at all. It is Calvinists who do that. God must be sovereign as Calvinsts believe God needs to be.

Works, properly viewed from the Word of God can only be spoken of after regeneration, anything prior to this is steeped in self-righteousness as the pharisees at best

The Word of God is Jesus Christ. The word of God is the Bible.

Steeped in self-righteousness? You are rather judgemental aren't you? I guess from your point of view it can't be helped.

and is unacceptable to God.

Judgemental and self-righteous of yourself indeed.

How do you guys claim scripture when you leave so much out of your system?

What is this all about?

The word of God is whole, it is complete, it is in need of nothing added, nor tolerates nothing removed. Proclaim the whole of Scripture and witness the communion of your spirit and the Spirit of God.

Perhaps you should heed your own warning.

In your last two paragraphs you digress so much into a seeming depression that I had to read it twice to understand any of it

Very good perception. Trying to comprehend the Calvinstic point of view is so depressing that it is difficult to even contemplate it.

He must first recognize that he is 'enmity against God.' Not that he is in danger of becoming God's enemy, but that he is proclaimed 'enmity against God.' Then and only then is man able to repent in Godly sorrow because of his helplessness and bondage to sin.

Wrong. All you must do is realise that you are not worthy of being saved. All you must do is trust in God and try to be righteous as God is righteous. It has nothing to do with self righteousness. It has to do with the Biblical command. You know, "to be righteous as God is righteous".

[Keep your personal comments out of it. Keep it on the issues.]

[ May 03, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
According to Calvinistic teachings, it doesn't matter what you do.

This is another statement from someone who is showing that they don't know what they are talking about this. This kind of stuff gets old. It is a baseless straw man argument. Calvinism teaches that it does matter what you do; it teaches that the Bible is relevant. Anyone who says otherwise is not telling the truth, hopefully out of ignorance. Please set your minds to learn so that this kind of statement is not repeated. It serves no purpose in this discussion.

 

[Eladar]

Why does it matter? God chooses and no matter what we do, God's choice must be.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Why does it matter?

Because God said it does and he cannot lie. Our inability to grasp that does not make it untrue.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Whoever said will power was unnecessary? I don't know any Calvinists who
believe this.

'If Calvinists say 'will power' there has to be the freedom of the will as the opposite being the 'bondage of the will.'

All Christians are commanded to obey God's Word and that includes
self-control and discipline all of which operate out of a person's will.

When you speak of a person's will, this means that human beings have the clarity of mind to either accept or refuse Christ into their hearts. [John 3:16-18]

Every Christian has a Free Will. We are able to not sin and we are able to sin.
Calvinists believe that Christ in Salvation gives liberty to the enslaved will and
makes it free.

A freedom to make the will free--is free will or free agency of the sinner. We believe that any sinner can repent {turn from the sins} and can invite Christ to make the change in their lives. He stands at the door and knocks. [Rev. 3:20]

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:

Everybody who studies the scriptures knows that the Holy Spirit DOES SOMETHING before any man, woman, boy or girl can make a choice. We are arguing over exactly what the Holy Spirit does in an individual's life that causes that person to Choose Christ.

We all agree the Holy Spirit does SOMETHING before people choose.

What has the Holy Spirit done?

1. He inspired the apostles words and writings to bring us the scripture and the gospel
2. He indwells those who believe compelling us to preach. For how will they preach unless they are sent?
3. He give us the words to preach, through inspiration and guidance so that the world can hear the Word of the Lord.

All of these acts are clearly spoken of and taught throughout scripture yet Calvinists don't believe this was enough to accomplish salvation for anyone. They add something. They say the Holy Spirit also works with a secret inward and irresistable calling to select individuals. This is unfounded in scripture. In fact, it makes the Holy Spirit's working through the preaching and spreading of the gospel seem trivial at best. </font>[/QUOTE]Does the Conviction of Sin, come from the rational thought process of the hearer of the gospel or from the supernatural activity of a Holy God in the heart of the listener?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Does the Conviction of Sin, come from the rational thought process of the hearer of the gospel or from the supernatural activity of a Holy God in the heart of the listener? [/QB]

The supernatural activity of a Holy God in the heart of listeners. I would think that Calvinists and Arminians would agree with this - they just differ as to what the Spirit's activity is.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Does the Conviction of Sin, come from the rational thought process of the hearer of the gospel or from the supernatural activity of a Holy God in the heart of the listener?

The supernatural activity of a Holy God in the heart of listeners. I would think that Calvinists and Arminians would agree with this - they just differ as to what the Spirit's activity is. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Is this supernatural activity equally dispersed whenever the gospel is preached to all hearers of the Gospel?