Christ our Creator's Sabbath in Gen 2? Really?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And HE refused the order of the sabbatarians to stop his disciples from harvesting grain on the sabbath, and HE told a man he had just healed of paralysis to carry his pallet on the sabbath. You would have been right at home condemning HIM for those things.

That now, Alcott, is you doing exactly what Paul said in Romans 14 a believer would not do.

May I ask you a question, Alcot?

How do you explain God's "rest" on the Seventh Day in Genesis 2:2,3?

What would you say if I [speaking for myself and for no denomination] say that God’s “rest” of and on the Seventh Day of his creation, was what God “WORKED” ON IT?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

that in place UNTIL time of yeshua, for ALL of that was fulfilled and summed up in Him, so NOW we do not look to the law, nor ewhat Sabbath to worship, but to live for Gof by the empowering of his holy spirit!

You can live under the old covenant, but the new has now come!

You say that “ALL of that” found in the Law, “was fulfilled and summed up in Him”.

Did that include “what Sabbath to worship”?

‘So NOW’?

So now if we do not look to the law, but to live for God as (the Law) ‘summed up in Him’, it does not include what Sabbath to worship?! How can that be? First, ‘what Sabbath to worship’ is “summed up in Him”, then, ‘what Sabbath to worship’ is not “summed up in Him” but is excluded in Him?
Are you not contradicting yourself?
… besides contradicting the Scriptures … besides contradicting Christ Jesus who said Himself, He is “Lord (Possessor) of the Sabbath”?!
Do you rob Jesus Christ of the Sabbath He is the Owner of?! Don’t you transgress the Commandment “Thou shalt not steal”?!
Yes, you are!
You also transgress the Commandment that says, “Thou shalt not LIE”
And the Law that says “You must REMEMBER the Sabbath and look after – “keep” – it” and not expel it and neglect – “not look to” – it!

You claim and do all these things “by the empowering of his holy spirit!”?!

You should ask yourself, Alcot, Am I not myself living under the old covenant, and despise the New that has now come by Christ’s fulfilment of it? For He “fulfilled” not the old covenant of man’s disobedience, but the New Covenant of God’s Faithfulness through Jesus Christ.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Which day is the 7th day?

US calendars show the 7th day as Saturday.

European calendars show the 7th day as Sunday.

I cannot remember which day is shown as the 7th day in the:

Mayan Calendar
Roman calendar
Chinese calendar.

 

[BobRyan]

Modern abberations in Calendars - re-arranges the ordering of the days of the week. But such recent customs should not be a source of confusion for several reasons.

The Jews say the 7th day is Saturday - and that religion has been around a while.
The Christians all agree that the first day is Sunday - and that religion has been around a while.
Even Islam with Friday prayers is in agreement that Saturday is the 7th day of the week.

So "not really confusing" to about half the world's population.

And in saying that - they are showing a certain level of agreement with each other.

In Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Spanish, Persian, High German, Arabic - all languages associated with the Bible or recognized by western society -

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resources/article-library/id/912/which-day-of-the-week.aspx

The word for Saturday - is Sabbath.

So even if one were not Christian, or Jew, or Muslim - it would have been easy to get that point.

In Exodus 16 God says "TOMORROW is the Sabbath".

On 6 days manna fell - on the seventh-day it did not - for 40 years. The Jews "figured it out" by then.

Christ observed the Sabbath as well (see Matt 4 ).

It is known today which day was being observed as the 7th day of the week by the Jews during the time of Rome.

So while I do agree that some people today are confused despite all the evidence. It is not many.

And even in Europe today - the Christians think that Christ was raised from the dead on the first day of the week - as the Bible says, and that that day is Sunday.

Just not that hard for them to figure out regardless of the printing practices of some calendar makers.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

We now have rest from the Law. We now have "Sabbath", continually.
[/quote

There is no "rest from God's Law" in all of scripture.

There is no "Sabbath continually" in all of scripture.


Romans 14 makes no mention at all of the TEN commandments or the 4th commandment or the Sabbath.

Romans 14 is about the vegetarian vs meat eating subject of 1Cor 8 and 10 that came up among Jewish and Gentile believers.

And it is also about the Lev 23 list of annual holy days where one man observed one day ABOVE the others while another observed them all.

To me, this verse is sufficient to answer the question beyond doubt.

Col 2 is about the shadow Sabbaths of Lev 23 - the annual Sabbaths given in animal sacrifice where the animal sacrifice was a shadow - pointing forward to the first coming of Christ. As Paul said "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

There is a "do not judge lest you be judged" element to Col 2 - just as there is to Matt 7 - long before the cross.

Same teaching about not judging others - pre-cross and post-cross.


If you regard man-made-traditions about week-day-1 above the clear word of God regarding God's own seventh day Sabbath - then Christ said in Mark 7 - you are in danger of nullifying the Word of God by placing man-made tradition against the Commandments of God.

The claim is not "Christians met for worship every Sabbath and for prayer meeting on many other days of the week - but never ever did the NT Christians ever meet even once on week day 1".

That claim has never been made.


Indeed one of the very few that you can find in the NT. And you can find NO "weekly" sunday services nor even a sequence of "Sunday after Sunday" weekly services".

And absolutely NO "And week day one is the Lord's Day"

No "Week day 1 is the day that we gather for worship".

NO "week day 1 is the new Sabbath".


It has a very key feature - the excuse for meeting is that Paul is about to depart. This is a farewell gathering the day before departure.

How wonderful if they had said something like "this is our weekly day of worship".

Since it takes place in the evening - then EITHER all that worship and communion was going on - on MONDAY (which would be Sunday evening).

OR it is a case of a Saturday evening service that spills over to week-day-1 - that is reserved for Paul as a travel day.



Nothing in Luke 11 or Acts 16 or Acts 20 or Acts 27 says "the new day starts at midnight".

Luke 23:54 Luke keeps the Bible model of days - saying that the Sabbath begins on Friday evening.

The term "midnight" does not mean "the end of night and start of a new day".

Here is the only weekly reference for week-day-1 and it is not a reference to worship, or gathering together, or the Lord's communion or any such thing.

it is a reference to individual acts of setting money aside and saving up for some future event.

There is no "Meet on the first day of each week".

There is no "let all of you gather together on the first day of each week"

and this absence is more than a little conspicuous.

The Bible never says "week-day-1 is the Lord's day".

The bible DOES say "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28 in the NT.

The Bible DOES say that the Sabbath is "the Holy day of the Lord" and God calls it "MY Holy Day" in Isaiah 58.

But nothing like that at all for week-day-1.



I agree - John is speaking of the Sabbath of the TEN Commandments.

I agree that a man-made tradition has come into being of the form that you speak of.

Since you like to cling to references about the RCC. Here is one that you may enjoy.

==============================================================
[FONT=&quot]The Faith Explained[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name". [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
"we know that in the o.t it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church[/FONT]

===================================================================== end quote

the brother demolished you main points, in his prior posting in regards to how the lord views all of this from the perspective of the saved now in christ!

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:


Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.


Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,


Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:


Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:


Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.


Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


Act 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
the church agreed that gentiles were NOT under the Jewish law, not the Sabbath day to observe...

Were they wrong?

 

[Yeshua1]

That now, Alcott, is you doing exactly what Paul said in Romans 14 a believer would not do.

May I ask you a question, Alcot?

How do you explain God's "rest" on the Seventh Day in Genesis 2:2,3?

What would you say if I [speaking for myself and for no denomination] say that God’s “rest” of and on the Seventh Day of his creation, was what God “WORKED” ON IT?

And that God abrogated that special day, in order to have the church observe sunday as the day jesus rose from the dead, as He is lored over the Sabbath, and reinstuted the day to observe if you want to use that language as first day of the week, Sunday!

why do you insist that we are still under the Jewish law, for we are under Grave, and a new covenant with god?

 

[Alcott]

What would you say if I [speaking for myself and for no denomination] say that God’s “rest” of and on the Seventh Day of his creation, was what God “WORKED” ON IT?

For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working" [John 5:16-17].

 

[BobRyan]

For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working" [John 5:16-17].

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Matt 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


1 John 5
2 By this
we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

No wonder then the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 so strongly affirms the Bible doctrine on the TEN Commandments as given to Adam in Eden and still applicable to the saints today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And that God abrogated that special day, in order to have the church observe sunday

No such text in all of scripture - no not even one such text.

as the day jesus rose from the dead,

Yes He was raised on Sunday - but never said it was a day of worship, a day blessed and sanctified by God, a day that God called "MY Holy Day" and "The Holy Day of the Lord" - (Isaiah 58) for those affirmations by God about a particular day of the week - you will have to settle for God's Sabbath.

as He is lored over the Sabbath,

Indeed HE said He is "Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 - but makes no statement at all about week-day-1 in all of the NT.

why do you insist that we are still under the Jewish law, for we are under Grave, and a new covenant with god?

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 321:31-33 is the ONLY covenant that Paul quotes in HEbrews 8 as the Christian New Covenant. In that ONE and ONLY New Covenant God writes "The LAW" of Jeremiah 31 on the "mind and heart".

Act 17:11 speaking of the OT - "They studied the SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them (by PAUL) were so" -- we call that "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine.

No wonder then the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 so strongly affirms the Bible doctrine on ALL of the TEN Commandments as given to Adam in Eden and still applicable to the saints today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

And HE refused the order of the sabbatarians to stop his disciples from harvesting grain on the sabbath, and HE told a man he had just healed of paralysis to carry his pallet on the sabbath.

Christ said He was doing nothing to in any way down grade or break the Law of God.

Matt 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Your argument above is that "the Pharisee is right" to accuse Christ of breaking the Law of God - and that we should go and do likewise.


By contrast - I argue that "Christ was right" in His claim that what He was doing was NOT breaking the Law of God - as HE gave it.


The disciples were not "harvesting" they were simply picking wheat as they walked through the field - and eating what was in their hand. But the "traditions" of the elders regarding that as a sin. Something not found in all of the OT.



You are arguing for traditions of man - over the Word of God and thus taking the Pharisees side on this one.



in Christ,


Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, first I want to tell - by the way - where you and I the first time were in discussion on Galatians 4:10. It was here, http://www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-12109.html, 08 08 05.


I just want to say it remains the most pleasant eye-opener to me to the courage a SDA could show, to so diametrically take in position over against his own church.
God bless you in this open confession of yours of Scripture-TRUTH.

While I don't know how this is diametrically opposed against the Sevent-day Aventist Fundamental beliefs - I do know this - 2005 was a long time ago. Amost 8 years and still the

Now the same is true in Matthew 28:1.
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is first SEEN in Matthew 28:1 although it is not ‘said’ in so many words in it.
Then Christ’s resurrection is believed for its Salvation it holds for all Believers in Christ.

in this thread I argue the point that anyone who takes Matt 28:1 and says "no matter that it does not say to worship, no matter that it does not say God blessed and sanctified that day, no matter that no command is given to mankind to keep that day holy -- YET that is the day of worship" -- THEN they have even MORE Bible support for the day of Genesis 2:1-3 for on that day starting in Eden there is even MORE Bible support for the Bible says in Gen 2:1-3 "God BLESSED the seventh day and made it holy".

Something we do not find even in Matt 28:1.

So if Matt 28:1 alone really is sufficient to establish a day of worship (no matter what day you may select for being the Matt 28:1 day) THEN Genesis 2:1-3 - even MORE so by direct command of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Act 15:22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
the church agreed that gentiles were NOT under the Jewish law, not the Sabbath day to observe...

Were they wrong?

No, my dear Jeshua1tjie, they were not wrong; you, are wrong.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

While I don't know how this is diametrically opposed against the Sevent-day Aventist Fundamental beliefs - I do know this - 2005 was a long time ago. Amost 8 years and still the

"the Sevent-day Aventist Fundamental beliefs" or not, your interpretation is anything than Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief. Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief is that Galatians 4:10 speaks of Old Testament "ceremonial holy days and sabbaths". That's a fact which to this day is a fact.
It's a pity you no longer show the courage you used to show when you answered me when I asked you how you experienced the reaction in your church to your position, and you told me something like that you experienced opposition; yet you held on to your viewpoint.

Can you after eight years face facts again with the same courage you had then, but seem to have lost in the meantime? It will be a great day and a day of freedom and joy, I promise you. (My promise you will laugh off, of course.)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

in this thread I argue the point that anyone who takes Matt 28:1 and says "no matter that it does not say to worship, no matter that it does not say God blessed and sanctified that day, no matter that no command is given to mankind to keep that day holy -- YET that is the day of worship" -- THEN they have even MORE Bible support for the day of Genesis 2:1-3 for on that day starting in Eden there is even MORE Bible support for the Bible says in Gen 2:1-3 "God BLESSED the seventh day and made it holy".

Something we do not find even in Matt 28:1.

So if Matt 28:1 alone really is sufficient to establish a day of worship (no matter what day you may select for being the Matt 28:1 day) THEN Genesis 2:1-3 - even MORE so by direct command of God.

Matthew 28:1 literally has "on the Sabbath / in Sabbath's-time"; "in Sabbath's fullness"; "in the very mid-afternoon of the Sabbath's Daylight"; "Sabbath while the First Day of the week neared".

That is Matthew 28:1, New Testament Gospel Scripture utilising Old Testament Scripture terminology by using the word and concept and metaphor for "Sabbath Day" in Genesis 2:2-3 "the day The Seventh Day" and in two Fourth Commandments "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD" which Bob Ryan avers does not exist in Matthew 28:1!

That is SDA courage and honesty for you!

 

[saturneptune]

Matthew 28:1 literally has "on the Sabbath / in Sabbath's-time"; "in Sabbath's fullness"; "in the very mid-afternoon of the Sabbath's Daylight"; "Sabbath while the First Day of the week neared".

That is Matthew 28:1, New Testament Gospel Scripture utilising Old Testament Scripture terminology by using the word and concept and metaphor for "Sabbath Day" in Genesis 2:2-3 "the day The Seventh Day" and in two Fourth Commandments "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD" which Bob Ryan avers does not exist in Matthew 28:1!

That is SDA courage and honesty for you!

I am really tired of your false doctrine crap. Why are you on a Baptist Board? There is no such thing as SDA courage. If you collection of clowns had walked the earth during Christ's ministry, your motivation in following Him around would have been the amazement at His miracles, expecting another magic act. You would not have given a second thought to Christ being the Creator of the Universe and Savior of the world.

That is reflected in your doctrine today. You are more interested in Saturday, magic acts from the Apsotles, and jibberish from heaven than you are lost souls or Christs work on the cross.

Your group is a menace to Christianity.

 

[BobRyan]

"the Sevent-day Aventist Fundamental beliefs" or not, your interpretation is anything than Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief. Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief is that Galatians 4:10 speaks of Old Testament "ceremonial holy days and sabbaths". That's a fact which to this day is a fact.

Galatians 4:4 speaks of the entire Law of God as known in the scriptures.

Christ did not break any of it.

He Himself states that He did not come to break the Law in Matt 5.

How have I changed on that view.

Gal 4:10 speaks of pagan days - not the word of God. Paul is condemning anyone in Gal 4:10 that may be returning to a practice of observing pagan days - He is not condemning anyone for observing the commands in the Word of God. In fact in Romans 14 Paul insists that if someone wants to keep this or that day as found in the Word of God - they are welcomed to it.

I don't know why you are supposing a change on my part. What is up with that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Questions For Ya

Since you seem to be our prime local BB SDA "representative" here lately, let me ask you a thing or two......Do YOU believe (as I'm told SDA's believe) that anybody who professes to be a believer in Christ as Saviour but doesn't faithfully observe Saturday as the "Sabbath" (or for that matter,the rest of the OT commandments as well, both moral AND ceremonial) is actually not really saved?....and will ultimately be resurrected for judgement....and then to be annihilated (cease to exist)...or (IF they WERE FAITHFUL to the teachings of the SDA church)saved to live eternally on the New Earth?

Also...do you believe in "soul sleep" and that those in the grave or who have died and been physically obliterated (both saved and lost) are currently in a state of "sleep" and are unaware of anything right NOW?

Do YOU believe that the SDA church is the ONLY true church that is faithfully teaching the "faith that was once delivered unto the saints"?

Tag...you're it.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[BobRyan]

Since you seem to be our prime local BB SDA "representative" here lately,

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Out of curiosity -does anyone know of any other SDAs that post here?

I thought at one time it came down to just me... but that was a few years ago - more may have been allowed to post here since then.

Does anyone know?

let me ask you a thing or two......Do YOU believe (as I'm told SDA's believe) that anybody who professes to be a believer in Christ as Saviour but doesn't faithfully observe Saturday as the "Sabbath" (or for that matter,the rest of the OT commandments as well, both moral AND ceremonial) is actually not really saved?

Not only do I not believe that - I don't know of any SDA that does believe it.

More than that - the Seventh-day Adventist church does not teach that the ceremonial law is binding on the saints after the cross.

Also...do you believe in "soul sleep" and that those in the grave or who have died and been physically obliterated (both saved and lost) are currently in a state of "sleep" and are unaware of anything right NOW?

Yes as we see in 1Thess 4 regarding "The dead in Christ" who have "fallen asleep".

Do YOU believe that the SDA church is the ONLY true church that is faithfully teaching the "faith that was once delivered unto the saints"?

Tag...you're it.

Bro.Greg:saint:

We believe that the list of Bible doctrines accepted by the SDA denomination are the most accurate set of doctrines of any group. If I personally thought that some other denomination had a more correct statement of bible doctrine I would join it. Why would any Christian choose to be a member of a denomination that they knew to have less Biblical than some other denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Please Post The Doctrinal List

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Out of curiosity -does anyone know of any other SDAs that post here?

I thought at one time it came down to just me... but that was a few years ago - more may have been allowed to post here since then.

Does anyone know?



Not only do I not believe that - I don't know of any SDA that does believe it.

More than that - the Seventh-day Adventist church does not teach that the ceremonial law is binding on the saints after the cross.



Yes as we see in 1Thess 4 regarding "The dead in Christ" who have "fallen asleep".




We believe that the list of Bible doctrines accepted by the SDA denomination are the most accurate set of doctrines of any group. If I personally thought that some other denomination had a more correct statement of bible doctrine I would join it. Why would any Christian choose to be a member of a denomination that they knew to have less Biblical than some other denomination.

in Christ,

Bob

While I know I can't agree with everything you probably believe (soul-sleep being one of those things) I'm not trying to "bait" you or "set you up". I genuinely would like to see the SDA doctrinal statement if you can post it in some kind of short-form that would be easily read and considered in THIS format. It doesn't need to be exhaustive. I just want to be able to compare it to the average "statement of faith" of the average autonomous Baptist Church.

One other thing...in terms of being authoritative...where do the teachings/writings of Ellen G. White and the founder, William Miller figure into things as compared to the final authority of the Word of God.....ONLY?

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[BobRyan]

While I know I can't agree with everything you probably believe (soul-sleep being one of those things) I'm not trying to "bait" you or "set you up". I genuinely would like to see the SDA doctrinal statement if you can post it in some kind of short-form that would be easily read and considered in THIS format. It doesn't need to be exhaustive. I just want to be able to compare it to the average "statement of faith" of the average autonomous Baptist Church.

Thank you for your kind post Gregory. No offense taken nor suspicion nor do I insist that everyone agree with all of my beliefs in order to be friends or agreeable. So no problem.

The SDA statment of faith consists of 28 fundamental beliefs and can be found here - in simple concise short form.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/.

One other thing...in terms of being authoritative...where do the teachings/writings of Ellen G. White and the founder, William Miller figure into things as compared to the final authority of the Word of God.....ONLY?

Bro.Greg:saint:

SDAs believe in the Acts 17:11 of "sola scriptura testing" of all doctrine. In the Acts 17:11 case even Paul himself is held to that standard - so certainly non-canonical prophets such as Ellen White would be held to that standard.

Ellen Harmon was 17 years old at the time of the 1844 "great disappointment" when the Millerites (those following the prophetic interpretation methods of William Miller - but not a denomination - rather an interfaith movement) had set their last and final date predicting the end of the world and second coming.

She married James White in 1845 at the age of 18.

She did not have any visions until after the Oct 22, 1844 date and was not thought of as a prophet by anyone during the Millerite movement prior to that date. The Mormon leader Joseph Smith died in June 27, 1844 and the general feeling among the Millerites and all Christians in general was total rejection of the idea of a modern day prophet - far more so than even today. No one (including Ellen Harmon) wanted to have anything to do with it.)

Once the Oct 22 date passed - the Millerites pretty much disbanded. A group of about 50 (out of nearly 50,000 in the U.S.) eventually went on to the form what is known today as the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

At first they were all Sunday keeping - just like the Millerites. But at some point in 1845 some Seventh-day Baptists began discussions with a sea captain by the name of Joseph Bates who was a friend of Ellen and James White.

All of the doctrines of the SDA denomination came about as a result of a study group consisting of James White, Uriah Smith and some others. But Ellen White was not part of the study group even though she attended the meetings with her husband. No one was looking to her for her views on this or that Bible text or Bible doctrine.

Nor did their efforts to clarify doctrines follow the process of waiting for God to give Ellen White a vision on some Bible doctrine and then trying to see if it was legit.

Rather they went to the Bible first and began hammering out what they thought was the best Bible statement on a given doctrine. And they went point by point.

In a few instances when they were stuck on some point - and could not figure out the right answer to a given question - God would give Ellen White a vision on that one point. And then they would move on to the next step. Her part was extremely limited to the point that she really was not studying the Bible much since she was experiencing some mild form of sickness making her a bit fuzzy headed. She simply was unable at the time to follow the discussions. As a result, when SDAs conduct evangelistic meetings/Bible studies they do not present the messages God gave Ellen White. Rather we simply go through the statement of faith, taking each doctrine and looking at the Bible evidence for it. If the one studying the Bible rejects the Bible basis for the doctrines - the study ends because the Bible is the final test of all doctrine. We do not have the practice of adding messages God gave Ellen White on this or that Bible doctrine as if this should have weight with a non-SDA studying the Bible with us to determine which doctrines are correct.

It original process of determining our statement of faith was rather methodical in the form they took. This was the early days and they were not necessarily look to Ellen White for anything.

When the Sabbath question was introduced by Joseph Bates to Ellen and James White - they were both predisposed not give it much attention. But eventually they and a number of other Adventist leaders studied the subject from the Bible in depth - until they saw that the Seventh-day Baptist position was correct.

in Christ,

Bob