Christ Rose on the Sabbath--strongest proof-text

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How do you come to that conclusion? Please can you spell it out more clearly how you can even come to that conclusion

The present discussion is ---or rather was intended to be--- an attempt to properly word the logic of an idea that anyone who might believe the validity of the Sabbath for himself while he confesses Christ rose from the dead, in other words, while he is a Christian might believe the validity of the Sabbath, can do so only and all else excluding, because Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath.

But what did I get in response, illogical incorrect illicit irrelevancies like what scholars might have had to say about the meaning of 'opse'.

 

[The Biblicist]

The present discussion is ---or rather was intended to be--- an attempt to properly word the logic of an idea that anyone who might believe the validity of the Sabbath for himself while he confesses Christ rose from the dead, in other words, while he is a Christian might believe the validity of the Sabbath, can do so only and all else excluding, because Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath.

But what did I get in response, illogical incorrect illicit irrelevancies like what scholars might have had to say about the meaning of 'opse'.

Well, what is the logic behind your statements as I don't see any? The only logic that I can see is that without resurrection death still reigns and therefore we are in our sins. The day has nothing to do with that logic.

If hebrews 4:3-4 is supposed to prove that God finished the resurrection of Christ on the Sabbath so that Christ could enter into the Sabbath rest then you have missed the boat completely as Hebrews 4:3-4 has nothing to do with that work at all but with the works finished at creation not at the cross.

Is that your supposed logic?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hebrews 4:3-4 is simply one part of a series of arguments to prove that Sabbath observance did not cease when we enter into the spiritual rest of the gospel (Heb. 4:1-2).

Amen!
That's what he's been saying ALL THE WHILE.
But was saying not like you, identifying and confusing "the Rest of God ... Jesus (who) gave them Rest (Himself)" [katapausis tou Theou], with "a Sabbath DAY'S rest [Sabbatismos] THEREFORE ['ara' -- "because ... Jesus gave them Rest"] remaining obligatory / valid / to be kept [apoleipetai] for the People of God [tohi laohi tou Theou]".

...was saying not like you, identifying and confusing, but was saying respecting and distinguishing, "dividing" what is written---the Word of God---and what is not written, your twisting of the words written and truth conveyed with them.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Strongest proof that the moon is made of cheese: Chewbacca is hairy.

If that is what it means to you that Christ rose from the dead, then that's what it means to you ---which 100% is what the Sabbath means to him who might hold the Sabbath, Christ's resurrection for him and his Sabbath and Sabbath keeping meaning just WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU!

Thanks, you gave me the perfect answer.

But even so, the Sabbath keeper is one better off than the Sunday worshipper. At least the Sabbath keeper thinks he honours God's Law. But the Sunday believer must needs venerate Sunday for itself.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

... argument based upon proof texting ... hermeneutics ...

... substance ... fact ... to prove ...

...sweet blow all.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Then we come to verse 9-10 where he makes his case that the work of Christ on the cross did not cause Sabbath observance to cease but provided a better Sabbath that commemorates his greater work of redemption as God commemorated the work of creation by setting apart a Sabbath observance. This better sabbath observance that commemorates the finished work of Christ will not cease until we enter into the future promised eternal rest in a new heaven and earth (v. 11) that fulfills all sabbath observances.

<<the work of Christ on the cross>> is nowhere near the subject of <<his (the author of Hebrews) case>>. “Jesus gave them REST” is Christ who triumphed in victory over death and grave “having entered into his own Rest as God in his own”— by having raised from the dead “WHEREFORE [ara] Sabbath Day’s rest for the People of God REMAINS valid” like you say against none but yourself here.


The two concepts of “the Rest-of-God” and the “Sabbath Day’s rest for the People of God” are both literally inferred and referred, and meant and mentioned in 4:4, “For God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake: And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works, rested.” “In fact God in times past through the prophets, in these last days BY THE SON … thus spake … And God the day The Seventh Day from ALL HIS WORKS, RESTED” … rested IN CHRIST … in Christ RAISED from the dead … raised from the dead “IN SABBATH DAY’S TIME” … “in Sabbath Day’s time” AS OFTEN AS the Sabbath is written in the Scriptures … written in the Scriptures the Sabbath Day … NEVER Sunday the First Day of the week.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If hebrews 4:3-4 is supposed to prove that God finished the resurrection of Christ on the Sabbath so that Christ could enter into the Sabbath rest then you have missed the boat completely as Hebrews 4:3-4 has nothing to do with that work at all but with the works finished at creation not at the cross.

Who is writing this, I? or you, yourself!


Hebrews 4 proves that God Raised Christ from the dead “GOD, THUS, HAVING SPOKEN”, which truth in itself—, by the very Resurrection of Christ from the dead AS SUCH, “is reason why [ara], the Sabbath could be entered into [Sabbatismos] by the (NT) People”, to find their Godly Rest IN CHRIST, IN “JESUS … THE REST OF GOD … who gave them, Rest.”


Keep on to accuse me falsely and in God’s face to give false witness concerning his Holy Day. It every time gives opportunity to witness for Christ and for his truth, right into your face.


“If JESUS gave them Rest” is conditional “WHEREFORE for the People of God his Sabbath Day’s rest remains— HE, even JESUS, HAVING ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD IN HIS OWN”, confirming God, in CHRIST, “finished all the works of God on the Seventh Day” through having raised JESUS from the dead on it, so that WE could enter into GOD’S Rest which is JESUS whom God raised from the dead, wherefore for us the New Testament People of God, keeping of the Lord Jesus’ Day of rest, the Sabbath He is Lord of, “remains” for us, Christian believers as well.


You, dear Biblicist, have missed the boat completely as Hebrews 4:3-4 has everything to do with that work of Divine Rest which God in Christ finished the Seventh Day in the resurrection of Christ from the dead—the same “Seventh Day” God finished his works with at creation.

The Sabbath was not the day that Jesus died on, dear Biblicist; it was the day God raised Christ from the dead on.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Well, what is the logic behind your statements as I don't see any?

As you may see or not see, is not the measure of anything here at issue.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hebrews 4:3-4 is simply one part of a series of arguments to prove that Sabbath observance did not cease when we enter into the spiritual rest of the gospel (Heb. 4:1-2). It did not cease when God entered into his rest after creation of this heaven and earth (vv. 3-4).

<<It…>>—<<Sabbath observance … did not cease when God entered into his rest after creation of this heaven and earth>>;

no, it started with God, when God after creation of this heaven and earth and after the fall man into sin, in and through the Son, had entered into His Own Rest “on the Seventh Day” and in and through the Son, “on the Seventh Day rested”. God by his Sabbath’s Institution of the Seventh Day, after the creation, “Rested” in the Son, while Adam and Eve had failed and disappointed God in His Own Rest. Sabbath observance did not cease, it began after we had entered upon our spiritual voyage to death without God and without Christ or hope. So <<Sabbath observance>> did not begin with us; it began with God.

Neither did Sabbath observance stop with us; it stopped with God in Christ in the death of death and sin <<on the cross>>.


<<Sabbath observance … did notcease with Joshua bringing the people into the promised land of rest>>,

Nor, ceased with “Jesus”, when He “gave the People of God Rest”—Himself—but began!


<<Sabbath observance … did not cease with David when he gave them rest from all the enemies around>>.

Therefore, would Sabbath observance end, “when JESUS, gave them Rest”—the Eternal Rest of Himself—“the Rest of God”? God forbid!


<<Sabbath observance … did not cease with the greater work of redemption by Christ as Christ set apart His Own Day.>>

No, when “JESUS AS GOD entered into His Own Rest”, when “JESUS AS GOD” had “finished ALL the works of God”— God’s works of His Redemption-Rest, Jesus with the first ever “Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD, from all his works RESTED”— rested with Eternal Rest in Full Fellowship of the Trinity and the redeemed first time, first day ever, "on the Sabbath".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

He is not arguing that God had to violate the Seventh Day Sabbath by working on it - raising Christ on that day.

Hebrews is not arguing like the Biblicist does <<that God had to violate the Seventh Day Sabbath by working on it - raising Christ on that day>>, sure.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Already proven your interpretation of Matthew 28:1 is corrupt as opse is used by mark for the first watch of the night between 6-9 p.m. which is AFTER the Sabbath not late "on" or "in" the Sabbath. Your only response thus far is your personal opinion against the weight of scholarship that unitedly states Mark 13;35 refers to the four watches of the night between 6 pm to 6am of which the first watch is called opse.

Refer
#56 or ↑

 

[Alcott]

He worked on the sabbath by getting up on that day?

Absolutely, YES!

So, are you going to stone him for doing so, as was done to the man gathering firewood in Numbers?

 

[The Biblicist]

Refer
#56 or ↑

You think repetition of your own opinion answers the weight of scholarship against your opinion?!??? Hang it up Gerard, you are simply welcome to your opinion but it is wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

<<It…>>—<<Sabbath observance … did not cease when God entered into his rest after creation of this heaven and earth>>;

no, it started with God, when God after creation of this heaven and earth and after the fall man into sin, in and through the Son, had entered into His Own Rest “on the Seventh Day” and in and through the Son, “on the Seventh Day rested”. God by his Sabbath’s Institution of the Seventh Day, after the creation, “Rested” in the Son, while Adam and Eve had failed and disappointed God in His Own Rest. Sabbath observance did not cease, it began after we had entered upon our spiritual voyage to death without God and without Christ or hope. So <<Sabbath observance>> did not begin with us; it began with God.

Neither did Sabbath observance stop with us; it stopped with God in Christ in the death of death and sin <<on the cross>>.


<<Sabbath observance … did notcease with Joshua bringing the people into the promised land of rest>>,

Nor, ceased with “Jesus”, when He “gave the People of God Rest”—Himself—but began!


<<Sabbath observance … did not cease with David when he gave them rest from all the enemies around>>.

Therefore, would Sabbath observance end, “when JESUS, gave them Rest”—the Eternal Rest of Himself—“the Rest of God”? God forbid!


<<Sabbath observance … did not cease with the greater work of redemption by Christ as Christ set apart His Own Day.>>

No, when “JESUS AS GOD entered into His Own Rest”, when “JESUS AS GOD” had “finished ALL the works of God”— God’s works of His Redemption-Rest, Jesus with the first ever “Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD, from all his works RESTED”— rested with Eternal Rest in Full Fellowship of the Trinity and the redeemed first time, first day ever, "on the Sabbath".

In Greek, Joshua is the same as Jesus and the text is speaking about Joshua not about jesus. Look at the text:

7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

In verse 7 he quotes David saying "today AFTER so long a time" proving that Joshua leading them into the promised land had not fulfilled the Sabbath observance. For if Joshua had given them rest, then he would not AFTERWARD have spoken of "ANOTHER DAY" in David.

Your zeal for your error clouds your brain so that you cannot exegete a text with objectivity.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

He worked on the sabbath by getting up on that day?



So, are you going to stone him for doing so, as was done to the man gathering firewood in Numbers?

Why don't you throw the first stone?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In Greek, Joshua is the same as Jesus

In NT Greek, Joshua is 'Iohsias' Matthew 1:10,11. And 'Jesus', 'Iehsous'.

Hebrews has 'Iehsous' for Jesus, eight times. So the writer knew that he was not writing about 'Iohsias' in 4:8, but about "JESUS who gave the People of God, REST", “once for all””.

Joshua 21:44 says "the LORD gave them rest round about"--not 'Iohsias';

Joshua 22:4; 1:15 say, "the LORD your GOD hath given rest"--not 'Iohsias'.

Joshua 14:15 says, "the land had rest from war". Jesus said "Not as the world gives peace do I give peace."


Innumerable times after Joshua, the LORD spoke of "another day ... as is said (written), Today if ye will hear His (the LORD'S) Voice, harden not your hearts." But "If JESUS gave them Rest, God would not ever after THESE things (Jesus having given them Rest and Jesus having entered into His Own Rest as God) speak of another day" of Salvation-Rest.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In verse 7 he quotes David saying "today AFTER so long a time" proving that Joshua leading them into the promised land had not fulfilled the Sabbath observance. For if Joshua had given them rest, then he would not AFTERWARD have spoken of "ANOTHER DAY" in David.


Your zeal for your error clouds your brain so that you cannot exegete a text with objectivity.

The meaning is “after so long a time” of hardening your hearts, thus,

“Again He, God, by David limits / defines a day, specifically today, saying, ‘After so long time pleading with you like today, when you hear His Voice, do not harden your hearts?!” The writer of Hebrews is pleading with his readers, “Do not harden your hearts BECAUSE IF JESUS gave them Rest, God would never ever speak with you about another day of grace!” Jesus is the only Way; His Last Word to mankind from God in order to save him. Thus pleaded the writer for so long with his readers of his own day. Enter into the Rest of God Jesus gave you just as Jesus entered into his own Rest as God in his own.

The meaning is “after so long a time” of hardening your hearts, not a long time after “the provocation in the day of the temptation” in the time of David.


This meaning corresponds with the rest of the context of the Whole Letter, for example chapters 4 and 6.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You think repetition of your own opinion answers the weight of scholarship against your opinion?!??? Hang it up Gerard, you are simply welcome to your opinion but it is wrong.

The weight of scholarship in the referred posts are against your opinion, Biblicist.
Here it is again, not what I say, but what your, scholars had to say,

Barnes - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~At even, or at midnight~
The Biblicist said: ↑

A..T. Robertson - (οψε), midnight (μεσονυκτιον), cock-crowing (αλεκτοροφωνιας), morning (πρω).
‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~evening (οψε), midnight (μεσονυκτιον)~

JFB - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 …

John Gill - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~at even, or at midnight~

John MacArthur - ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 … ~…watches of the night from 6:00 p.m. to 6 a.m. Their names identify the ends of the three-hour periods rather than the periods beginnigs.~

Now I, GE, could have gone on and on listing commentaries, Biblical background authors who all say the very same thing. In fact, it is very very difficult to find any New Testament scholar that says otherwise, ~authors who all say the very same thing~ ‘opse’ in Mark 13:35 …‘LATE in day’!

 

[Alcott]

Why don't you throw the first stone?

Because I ain't gonna throw ANY stones.

 

[The Biblicist]

But even so, the Sabbath keeper is one better off than the Sunday worshipper. At least the Sabbath keeper thinks he honours God's Law. But the Sunday believer must needs venerate Sunday for itself.

That is a bunch of garbage! We do not venerate Sunday at all especially "for itself". We set the day apart to honor Christ, His Word, his worship and our hope of his soon return. The day has no meaning apart from His finished work is commemorated on it.