CHRIST: Sinless or not?

[npetreley]

Though you deny the wine in Deuteronomy 32:33 is wine, verse 38 clearly shows it indeed is wine and it is poison, just as Moses wrote.

LOL! It's wine alright. It's THEIR wine. That's the word you have to ignore in order to make it mean what you want.

According to your twisted reasoning, grapes are gall, vines are of Sodom and fields are of Gomorrah!! Hey, that's what it says, right there, in black and white -- right next to your claim that wine is poison. If you're going to apply your twisted logic to one thing, you gotta apply it to all. So vines, grape, rocks, and fields are all EVIL.

Oohhhh.... scary vines. Scary rocks! Evil grapes!! Scary field!!!

Just so it doesn't lose visibility, so everyone can see how foolish your claim is:

28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them. 29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end! 30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 THEIR [read it and weep - THEIR] wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Their wine is alcoholic. Moses said the wine that God allows was not.

You just don't get it, do you?

 

[Conservative Christian]

Their wine is alcoholic. Moses said the wine that God allows was not. You just don't get it, do you?

You're the one that just doesn't get it.

Orthodox Jews are REQUIRED to drink FOUR cups of wine with their Passover meal. Passover is one of the holiest Jewish holidays, and is one of the most widely observed Jewish holidays.

Two of my personal friends are ORTHODOX RABBIS. They and virtually every other knowledgeable orthodox Jew will tell you that they drink REAL WINE with REAL ALCOHOL during their Passover meal! That has been the unwavering practice since the Passover tradition was established, well before the birth of Christ!

Please remember that the Jews before the time of Christ did not have Christ to atone for their sins. So they strictly adhered to THE LAW! If they would've had even the slightest notion that God disapproved of moderate wine consumption with meals, they would have gone nowhere near it.

But since MILLIONS of devout Jews before and after the birth of Christ have drank REAL WINE with REAL ALCOHOL during their Passover meal, it is OBVIOUS that the moderate consumption of ALCOHOLIC WINE was NOT considered a sin by God.

And please remember that Christ came not to CHANGE the Law, but to FULFILL the Law. So please don't try to pass any hokum off on us like "Oh, gee whiz, it became a sin after Christ came."

 

[blackbird]

Please remember that the Jews before the time of Christ did not have Christ to atone for their sins. So they strictly adhered to THE LAW!

And please remember that Christ came not to CHANGE the Law, but to FULFILL the Law.

You've got the second paragraph right but the first paragraph flies against the grain of Holy Scripture----the Jews before the time of Christ did not have Christ to atone for their sins???? So they strictly adhered to THE LAW???

What'd the Jews do before the giving of the Law?? What about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?? What about Joseph?? What did these Hebrews "adhere to" before God gave the Law to Moses??

"By faith Abraham believed and it was counted unto him for righteousness"---I see no adherance to the Law here---just folks giving themselves over---surrendering themselves over to Christ by faith!!

 

[HankD]

Here is the point.

We believe Jesus drank real wine.

They believe that is a sin.
Since they believe drinking wine is a sin and we believe Jesus drank wine then WE believe that Jesus was NOT sinless.

Or so that is the reasoning.
It matters not that we say over and over again that we DO believe He was sinless.

Mark 7

15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.​

There is however scriptural reason to abstain :​

1) Your own perception:​

KJV Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.​

2) The brothers/sisters in Christ:​

Romans 14
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

The third reason is in the emboldened type in the last Scripture above.​

If your faith allows alcoholic beverage then find a church where it won't be offensive or simply abstain.​

HankD​

 

[Diggin in da Word]

You're the one that just doesn't get it.

Orthodox Jews are REQUIRED to drink FOUR cups of wine with their Passover meal. Passover is one of the holiest Jewish holidays, and is one of the most widely observed Jewish holidays.

Two of my personal friends are ORTHODOX RABBIS. They and virtually every other knowledgeable orthodox Jew will tell you that they drink REAL WINE with REAL ALCOHOL during their Passover meal! That has been the unwavering practice since the Passover tradition was established, well before the birth of Christ!

Please remember that the Jews before the time of Christ did not have Christ to atone for their sins. So they strictly adhered to THE LAW! If they would've had even the slightest notion that God disapproved of moderate wine consumption with meals, they would have gone nowhere near it.

But since MILLIONS of devout Jews before and after the birth of Christ have drank REAL WINE with REAL ALCOHOL during their Passover meal, it is OBVIOUS that the moderate consumption of ALCOHOLIC WINE was NOT considered a sin by God.

And please remember that Christ came not to CHANGE the Law, but to FULFILL the Law. So please don't try to pass any hokum off on us like "Oh, gee whiz, it became a sin after Christ came."

Jews have been drinking wine with their passover, you are correct. But it was not alcohol with many Jews, only those who would not adhere to God's Word to leave that poison of asps alone!

Their wine [is] the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. (Deuteronomy 32:33)

This is the same wine that Solomon warns against:

Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, [when] it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. (Proverbs 23:31-32)

 

[JerryL]

What wine and strong drink is God telling them to drink in this verse, pertaining to if it was too far to carry their tithe to change it into money and then when they to got to the place God chose, to use that money to buy these things? Looks to be alcholic to me.

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If you will read the rest of the account of the children of Israel, you will find that they did not dring wine or strong drink.

Why did they not do this?

Because it was a test to see who was faithful to God and who was not!

And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:5-6)

They did not drink alcoholic beverage. That is clear by the above verse.

 

[HankD]

If you will read the rest of the account of the children of Israel, you will find that they did not dring wine or strong drink.

Why did they not do this?

Because it was a test to see who was faithful to God and who was not!

And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I [am] the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:5-6)

They did not drink alcoholic beverage. That is clear by the above verse.

They didn't eat bread either, so is bread evil?

HankD

PS I am an abstainer.

 

[Baptist Believer]

They didn't eat bread either, so is bread evil?

Obviously... And God also tested them to see if they let their clothes wear out or their shoes get too small as they grew.

Let's use Diggin's logic for a moment:

Apparently the principle for us today is, God is testing to see who is faithful. We know we aren't faithful if the following things happen to us:

1.) We drink wine
2.) We eat bread.
3.) Our clothes wear out or become too small within the span of 40 years.
4.) Our shoes wear out of become too small within the span of 40 years.

Oh dear! Either no one is faithful, or that verse actually refers to the children of Israel knowing that our God is THE LORD because He has provided for them.

You really have to rip that out of context to claim that it is somehow a test of "faithfulness!"

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God did provide for them. They did not go out and buy alcoholic wine or strong drink. Thank you for finally admitting that.

And what God provided was manna, and water. not manna and alcoholic wine.

 

[DHK]

Very well said. Though I would disagree with a point or two, I must also agree that Jesus would never have made something containing decay. Kudos to you and your words of grace seasoned with salt.

Now.......WILL A MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING???????

So done at the request of originator of the thread.