Christ The Calvinist

[Brother Bob]

If you don't know then it is through faith. It was by Grace "through faith" were you saved, not of works lest any man should boast.
The above Scripture is not the only one in the Bible but even it says "through faith" but the Scripture says also that faith without works is dead. If any of the parables or Scriptures that Jesus used where people were saved had they not moved out (pressed through the crowd, lowered through a roof etc.) they never would of been saved. In other words they believed that Jesus would save them but they had to get to them and they knew it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke, chapter 12
8": Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
"9": But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

We are not talking about being a missionary but trusting in God for deliverance enough to "move out and confess Him " by faith.

 

[whatever]

Brother Bob,

Who among us denies that salvation comes by faith? I really have no idea what you are getting at.

 

[Brother Bob]

I am like James;
(as the Lord has said "show me")

James, chapter 2
"18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
"20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[whatever]

I must be like Thomas then, because I doubt I will ever understand what you are saying. Are you questioning my salvation?

 

[Brother Bob]

Never! I am putting you in the same boat as the rest of us. It took faith to please God and without it you will never please Him. God so loved the "whole" world that He gave His only begotten Son. Not just you and me.

Loved is what it is all about and I preached to a dying and lost world today for them to repent of their sins, believe that Jesus is the Christ and confess Him before a sinful and adultress generation and He will save you, for He loves you all, not just me. I told them that I loved them but God loves them more!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Calvinists believe that a changed life and an abiding in Christ are a result of the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration that leads to salvation.

Joseph Botwinick

Then preaching is vanity, all is vanity and in vain for it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation if the above is true then we need to quit preaching, quit missionarie, witnessing to sinners, all is vanity. Calvinist never will justify "particular election" and "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

 

[whatever]

Oh, I thought you were disagreeing with me about something. Sorry about that, and carry on!

 

[Brother Bob]

No Whatever, I would never question your Salvation. I am just trying to get to Heaven myself.

 

[whatever]

Hey, I can tell you how! "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Calvinists believe that a changed life and an abiding in Christ are a result of the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration that leads to salvation.

Joseph Botwinick

Then preaching is vanity, all is vanity and in vain for it has absolutely nothing to do with salvation if the above is true then we need to quit preaching, quit missionarie, witnessing to sinners, all is vanity. Calvinist never will justify "particular election" and "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." </font>[/QUOTE]The reason we preach the Gospel, do missionary work, and witness to sinners is because we are commanded to do so by the Word of God. That is the only justification I need. The commands of God are in no way vanity. What more do you need?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

The question is why? You think God needs you if He has already chose everyone. Just maybe you get in the way, when the Holy Spirit is working with someone, or just maybe you are working with the wrong person when the right one is just around the corner. Don't make sense. You say "win souls to Christ" and then you say the Holy Spirit does it, which is it? Looks to me like you are tearing down your own ministry!!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Question: Why?

Answer:Because God said to do it.

Question: Do I think God needs me?

Answer: No. God,in his sovereign will, chose to use me as a vessel to reach the lost. He most certainly could have done it in any manner he wished.

Question: What if I am working with the wrong person?

Answer: Not my concern. God told me to witness to all men. I don't know, nor do I need to know who the elect are going to be. All I need to do is obey God. God will work out his will in the elect.

Question: Is it the Holy Spirit or me who wins souls for Jesus?

Answer: I am the one who shares the Gospel of Christ to the lost out of obedience to God and his word. It is God who wins the soul and saves them. Not me.

Question: Am I tearing down my own ministry?

Answer: I certainly hope so, as it should not be my ministry in the first place. It is God's ministry, and if I have any other understanding of it, I certainly hope that I end up destroying it altogether.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

Answer: I certainly hope so, as it should not be my ministry in the first place. It is God's ministry, and if I have any understanding of it, I certainly hope that I end up destroying it altogether.

Joseph Botwinick

So why don't you just stay home you can't lose anything if you already have it and you certainly are not going to gain anyone for the Holy Spirit will do that. I can't see where you are making any gain whatsoever if its just you trying to do what is the Holy Spirit's job. Again I say, it makes no sense at all. Now, if by your ministry, and if you are ordained of God it is your ministry, God give it to you, or at least you will be held accountable for it, anyway if you through your witnessing cause someone to repent that otherwise might not of then you are doing what God told you to do. But if, as you say, The Holy Spirit does all of that then you haven't gained anyone.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Answer: I certainly hope so, as it should not be my ministry in the first place. It is God's ministry, and if I have any understanding of it, I certainly hope that I end up destroying it altogether.

Joseph Botwinick

So why don't you just stay home you can't lose anything if you already have it and you certainly are not going to gain anyone for the Holy Spirit will do that.</font>[/QUOTE]Because God has told me to go and witness. That is all I need. How about you?

I can't see where you are making any gain whatsoever if its just you trying to do what is the Holy Spirit's job.[/QUOTE]

Again, pay real close attention. My job is to preach the Gospel. The Holy Spirit's job is to convict the lost of sin and regenerate them. I am not doing the Holy Spirit's job. As a matter of fact, the only folks I have ever known to manipulate the lost by trying to do the Holy Spirit's job are free-will Arminians. I realize this may not always be true, but this has been my experience.

Again I say, it makes no sense at all. Now, if by your ministry, and if you are ordained of God it is your ministry, God give it to you, or at least you will be held accountable for it, anyway if you through your witnessing cause someone to repent that otherwise might not of then you are doing what God told you to do. But if, as you say, The Holy Spirit does all of that then you haven't gained anyone. [/b][/QUOTE]

Nope. It is God's ministry, and it is God who saves sinners, not me.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

Ok, He told me that I would have to give an account for what I preach and do.

Do you witness to sinners to try and get them to come to Christ. If so then you are at heart a Arminian.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

That does not mean it is your ministry and that you are the one who saves. I am a teacher. I teach kids band. Ultimately, however, it is not my band. The school, the instruments and the program belongs to the school district. I am responsible to them for what I teach. But it is not my program. I am responsible to preach the Word. It is not my Word, nor my ministry. It is God's Word and God's ministry.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Do you witness to sinners to try and get them to come to Christ. If so then you are at heart a Arminian.

I witness to the lost to be obedient to Christ. I believe I said that before.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

Then you are doing our job for you don't believe it will accomplish anything. I am sorry and don't want to be mean spirited but I go back to my original statement. If what you say is true then it is "vanity". You don't believe in what you are doing for you believe they can't come but must wait until the Holy Spirit changes them then they can repent. Repentance is a Godly Sorrow (to become sorrow you sinned against God). You believe the Holy Spirit makes you do that then that makes faith void.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is not your word and you can't save no one. It all belongs to God. But what you do as a minister (minister unto others) is your ministry, for if you do a bad job God wants no part of it. In other words we can't blame God for a bad ministry.

I have heard it said "God give it to me and I must give it to you" well some of it I say "don't blame God for that".

You are a teacher. Well my wife retired from thirty years of teaching and her being a teacher did not belong to the school she spent 5 years in college to earn that.