Christ The Calvinist

[Rippon]

Scripture declares that some will not come to Him that they might have life (John 5:40). Why won't they come to Him? Because they love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19,20). They choose the darkness. It is not forced on them.

Amen ! Of course darkness is not forced on anyone .

 

[Rippon]

I have closed my mind to doctrines that do not line up with Scripture.

You have indeed closed your mind . But , many doctrines which you object to on the BB are , in fact , very biblical . Wash yourself in the Word of God . "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind ." ( from Romans 12:2 TNIV )

 

[Rippon]

But the Word of the LORD abideth ever.

AMEN SFIC !

 

[Rippon]

The Calvinistic T.U.L.I.P. petals are of this earth, earthy. They will fade, and they will wither.

You've got a dilemma on your hands then . If you deny those propositions which are firmly based on the Word of God -- you are denying the Word of God with your stance .

Sure the godly men who formulated those propositions against the error-ridden Remonstrants were not the authors of Scripture .It was a man-made document and not infallible -- yet it took pains to be in conformity with Holy Writ . Perhaps you need to review this wonderful document . You may have some mistaken notions presently , but a little refresher course in these basics may help you form a better conception of key biblical truths . They expounded the particular issues at-hand with great ability and fidelity to the Bible .

You have greater affinity with the position of the Remonstrants . But their views certainly do not line up with Scripture .

 

[PK]

If this is true, that Christ died for every single individual that ever lived, then won't everybody be saved?

Seriously, I am the one who is uneducated, and it seems clear to me that IF Christ died for every single person, then shouldn't all be saved?

Ah, but the person must choose Christ, you say?

But salvation is not based on human will, it is not based on my choice.

As in Adam all die so in Christ (the second Adam) all CAN live. All who are effected by Adams fall can experience God's grace. God uses the simple things to confound the wise...

 

[Rippon]

Without reading Boice, Pink, Calvin, etc---A simple question can be asked

Who are the elect? Very elementary----the elect are the whosoever will's

A more comprehensive answer might be :

The elect who are His sheep ; the Church of God which He bought with His own blood ; the ones from the beginning God chose to be saved ; the ones who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God ; the ones to whom the Son gives life to and is pleased to do so ;the ones that He has mercy on ( in counterdistinction to those He chooses to harden ) ; the ones who are predestined , called , justified, and glorified ; the ones for whom the Father gave up His one and only Son for ;the ones for whom nothing shall separate them from God's love ;the ones for whom He has set His seal of ownership on ( the Holy Spirit in our hearts as a deposit ) ;the ones for whom He made His light shine in our hearts ; the ones who are known by God ;the ones for whom it has been granted to believe on Him ; the ones who have a righteousness not their own ; the ones whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life ; the ones which He has rescued from the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of His Son ;for those who have been made alive with Christ ; those that the Lord knows are His ; those who are a chosen people , a royal priesthood , a holy nation , a people belonging to God .

 

[Rippon]

One needs to be reminded that when one reads Calvin---one is reading words that are a little bit less than infallable

The writings of any human are subject to fallibility . No one here has ever suggested otherwise .And , for the millionth time -- most Calvinists have read little to none of Calvin's writings . But you knew that .

Calvin , Owen , Gill , Pink and a galaxy of other godly and scholarly men have been ardent Calvinists . They have endeavored to uphold the Word of God . They have sought to explain it very carefully . But they have also been frail humans .

The Word of God is front and center and the only fully-breathed-out-by-God revelation . Anything other than those 66 books are of non-divine origin . However , God has raised up men in the Universal Church who have been His instruments in extending the Kingdom and edifying the saints . Nothing should dimiish the efforts these men have put for in His service .

 

[skypair]

If this is true, that Christ died for every single individual that ever lived, then won't everybody be saved?

Everyone will be RESURRECTED body, soul, and spirit because Christ died for EVERYONE'S sins. I can't imagine any other way to "get out of hell free" as we see in Rev 20:12-15. Then they are judged according to the "book of works" (good works) and "book of life" (faith in Christ book).

Ah, but the person must choose Christ, you say?

But salvation is not based on human will, it is not based on my choice.

So it's based on God's choice and God's belief in Christ? That's what you are saying. That the Holy Spirit comes into the "elect," That the Holy Spirit believes in Christ and the Spirit's choosing Christ for you is all that matters.

That pretty much leaves your choice and will comlpletely out of it, doesn't it? At some point you can and will believe the Spirit but "choices" and "will" are all His. It's as if, in fact, you were "possessed" by the Holy Spirit and did things you didn't want to do. There's a paradigm for that thought --- it's called "demon possession."

Maybe Calvinists would feel more comfortable with us saying they are "Spirit possessed" rather than "Spirit indwelt?" That would be one way to honestly aver that 1) God is totally sovereign and 2) that we do nothing so 3) He deserves all the glory.

Of course, the other paradigm is that the Spirit speaks to us before salvation and indwells after salvation influencing us into right decisions and choices. But that is not the model Calvinists are looking for, is it.

skypair

 

[psalms109:31]

Tulip

The TULIP is scriptual, but is short of telling what scripture is saying with every word that comes from the mouth of God. There is more to the word of God than the tulip wants men to know The tulip can be supported by scripture and supports itself, but in in of it by itself does not tell the complete story. It leaves so much out.

The only complete work of God is scripture. To me the tulip is a watch tower and men can be looking at scripture through a tulip veil.

 

[Rippon]

The TULIP is scriptual, but is short of telling what scripture is saying with every word that comes from the mouth of God. There is more to the word of God than the tulip wants men to know The tulip can be supported by scripture and supports itself, but in in of it by itself does not tell the complete story. It leaves so much out.

The only complete work of God is scripture. To me the tulip is a watch tower and men can be looking at scripture through a tulip veil.

No one has claimed that TULIP is the complete summary of biblical truths -- Scripture alone is .

The Synod of Dort met to deal with the errors of the Remonstrants . Five specific propositions were dealt with . The Calvinistic response dealt with these five areas . It was not meant as a comprehensive Bible summation. What was hammered out was indeed very biblical and edifying to the Church though .

The Reformed understanding of the Bible is a lot more expansive than TULIP !

 

[nunatak]

Everyone will be RESURRECTED body, soul, and spirit because Christ died for EVERYONE'S sins. I can't imagine any other way to "get out of hell free" as we see in Rev 20:12-15. Then they are judged according to the "book of works" (good works) and "book of life" (faith in Christ book).

Here you have me at a disadvantage. I have asked before whether Christ died for ALL the sins of ALL men. In my thinking, if that is true, then ALL will be saved. I have never heard of what you are referring to here.

So it's based on God's choice and God's belief in Christ? That's what you are saying. That the Holy Spirit comes into the "elect," That the Holy Spirit believes in Christ and the Spirit's choosing Christ for you is all that matters.

I did not say this, you are putting words in my mouth. I am trying to understand whether Christ died for ALL the sins of ALL men. If he did, shouldn't all be saved? Since all will not be saved, then how could he have died for all the sins of mankind?

That pretty much leaves your choice and will comlpletely out of it, doesn't it? At some point you can and will believe the Spirit but "choices" and "will" are all His. It's as if, in fact, you were "possessed" by the Holy Spirit and did things you didn't want to do. There's a paradigm for that thought --- it's called "demon possession."

If by choice you are referring to faith, then it certainly is not "out of it." I don't know how it all works. I do believe that we are saved by Grace alone. And that through faith alone. Where does faith come from? Is it my faith? Does God give me the faith, or do I generate it? Whatever happens, I know that my flesh cannot be allowed to boast.

Maybe Calvinists would feel more comfortable with us saying they are "Spirit possessed" rather than "Spirit indwelt?" That would be one way to honestly aver that 1) God is totally sovereign and 2) that we do nothing so 3) He deserves all the glory.

Okay, I don't call myself a Calvinist. I have said in the past I don't know what I am. A Christian yes. But that is not enough. I know people who call themself Christian who teach and believe heresy. Not Calvinism either. I am talking about believing in salvation by works.

Of course, the other paradigm is that the Spirit speaks to us before salvation and indwells after salvation influencing us into right decisions and choices. But that is not the model Calvinists are looking for, is it.
skypair

I do pray that God would open my mind to learn these doctrines of the gospel of the Grace of God. Thanks for responding.

 

[psalms109:31]

No one has claimed that TULIP is the complete summary of biblical truths -- Scripture alone is .

The Synod of Dort met to deal with the errors of the Remonstrants . Five specific propositions were dealt with . The Calvinistic response dealt with these five areas . It was not meant as a comprehensive Bible summation. What was hammered out was indeed very biblical and edifying to the Church though .

The Reformed understanding of the Bible is a lot more expansive than TULIP !

I read the Canons of Dort it was really good until He said something totally against the scripture. It has nothing to do with God inclinning our hearts to believe. He places two roads before us to believe in Jesus and be saved or not and be condemned. God doesn't force any one down a path, we can walk away just like the young rich ruler. It has everything to do with foreknowledge, and the translation is right and God doesn't need any man to retrancelate His word. He is sovreign and His word was translated just the way He wanted it.

I totally agree with calvinism until the Gospel is preached, then as the scripture say's whosoever believes shall be save. Jesus words are Spirit and they are life. His words can breath life unto whosoever, so they can make thier own choice to believe or not to believe. Some will come and some will walk away just like the young rich ruler.

You cannot blame God why they didn't come, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The elect of God who are the Jews that was cut out for unbelief not because they were not chosen.

We gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. We are adopted children.

 

[skypair]

Here you have me at a disadvantage. I have asked before whether Christ died for ALL the sins of ALL men. In my thinking, if that is true, then ALL will be saved. I have never heard of what you are referring to here.

So you are aware of 1John 2:2 "...died, not our sins only, but the sins of the whole world." And the problem is, why isn't everyone saved then? Because the lost didn't believe on Christ. It's not just that in death they were turned away from sin -- it's that in life they needed to turn TO Christ.

And truly, that is what conversion is. If you will turn from self and sin you will only be a reformed person. You will have only "turned over a new leaf." But if you turn TO God/Christ, you will be regenerated/born again/saved by Christ. As the parable of the 10 virgins shows, some of the church is waiting for Him and believe He is coming. They had the lamp and the fire and were in the right place at the right time. But the bridegroom never knew them.

I don't know how it all works. I do believe that we are saved by Grace alone. And that through faith alone. Where does faith come from? Is it my faith? Does God give me the faith, or do I generate it? Whatever happens, I know that my flesh cannot be allowed to boast.

Job 32:8 -- "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." First there is a "spirit in man." Calvies don't like to separate them but we have a soul (conscience) and a spirit (mind, emotions, and will). Guess what. Conscience is for CONVICTION, John 8:9, 16:8 -- the mind is for inspiration unto understanding. And "understanding" is the truth of the gospel -- the everlasting gospel BTW. "Fear God; give glory to Him... worship Him..." Isn't this the same "gospel" that Paul said came to every man (Rom 1:19) and that, rejecting, men became "vain and their foolish heart was darkened?" (Rom 1:21)

Today, that gospel is focused on Christ, but in the OT it was focused on God (they not at all knowing of God's Son). The main feature is what WE are expected to do with the knowledge God has given us so that HE may save us. Don't go thinking that God gives anyone anything but the testimony of the Word, "the creation of the world" (Rom 1:20) and His own "goodness" (Rom 2:4) in "inspiring" us to choose salvation.

I do pray that God would open my mind to learn these doctrines of the gospel of the Grace of God. Thanks for responding.

I will join you in that. It is really crucial that you see this and understand that Calvinism tries to say that the OT saints were saved the same way as us when, in fact, they were NEVER yet "regenerated" in the manner Calvinism requires is salvation. Therefore, the pattern of "regeneration precedes faith" is fatally flawed -- or else all the OT saints are lost.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Time To See This Again

One of the books that I recently received is Our Sovereign Saiour : The Essence Of The Reformed Faith. It is by Roger Nicole, a grand old Baptist of the Reformed faith.

In chapter 6 he says some things along the lines of James Boice. His chapter is : The Doctrines Of Grace In The Teachings Of Jesus.

Does Calvinism find support in the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ? Or, to put it differently, are there statements that Christ made which give evidence of the doctrines of sovereign grace, those doctrines which have been the centre of Reformed thought?

[ Dr. Nicole ges on to say that there are 1,700 verses of Jesus in the N.T. Of those , about 500 ] passages contain some reference to the doctrines of grace -- almost one-third of what our Lord said.

Not only does the doctrine of grace tell us about the great need of man.It also tells us about the great ability of God to respond to this need. The Lord Jesus Christ has exalted the sovereign power of God. He has represented God as capable of doing anything he pleases. He has shown that he is the one who exercises judgment over the whole world.He sustains even the flights of little birds by his almighty power. He is the One who appoints the destinies of individuals and of nations.


The decisions of God embrace the destinies of men. They are decisions that are granted in his good pleasure and which are not always proportioned to what you might call the ability of man to respond. For instance, the Lord Jesus shows that there are people who might very well have benefited by the ministry that he performed but who were not privileged to receive it. He says that Sodom and Gomorrah would have repented if they had been exposed to his ministry, but they did not get it. He says that Tyre and Sidon would have repented if they had been privileged to see the kind of miracles which Capernaum and Bathsaida saw, but they did not receive this vision .

Good stuff,huh?

 

[Rippon]

Continuing Nicole's choice thoughts...

This, I think,is the drastic error which our Pelagian friends are making. They speak as if man had a right to come into the presence of God and enter into account with him, as if God had some obligation to deal with all people alike. The one thing God owes us is judgment. The thing that ought to cause us to marvel is the fact that instead of confining us all to judgment and damnation, God has been pleased in his mercy to make plans to save a great multitude. He has caused these to hear the gospel, receive forgiveness in Jesus Christ, be drawn in faith and repentance by the Holy Spirit so that they respond to the offer of the gospel, and be preserved to the end so that they will spend eternity in the blessed presence and fellowship of God. This is the thing that is marvellous. The fact that this has not been done for the whole of the human race does not provide us with the proper ground for recrimination.


So every one of the great points of Calvinism finds direct support in the words of Jesus. Some of them find no better support anywhere else in Scripture. Did Jesus teach Calvinism? Was Jesus a Calvinist? Would the Author of all grace teach us concerning the doctrines of grace? Why, certainly! And it is our comfort and our refuge.

AMEN Dr.Nicole!

 

[Jim1999]

Many Calvinists preach the gospel as if it all depends on man, knowing that it all depends on God.

Some believe God is absolutely sovereign, but sadly He has weak knees and must bow to man's petty wishes.

Foreknowledge is not the cause for salvation, it is a natural absolute nature of a sovereign, eternal God...Obviously He has foreknowledge!

I preach as if it all depends on me, but I know I could not preach effectively without the Holy Spirit..This knowledge does not prevent me from putting all I have into a sermon. I am a Calvinist because I think it is a systematic theology which comes the closest to New Testament teaching. No more and no less.

Cheers,

Jim

I tried reading all 155 posts from the beginning and had to stop around 30. I was getting dizzy from all the roundabout garble.

 

[OldRegular]

I stated some years ago, before I took a sabbatical, that I thought that use of the term Calvinism initiated so much bias that people would not listen to what was said.

I am not a Calvinist since Calvin held some doctrines that I do not. However, I do believe in the Biblical Doctrines of Grace or the Biblical Doctrine of Election, whatever one might call them. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely the work of the Sovereign Triune God.

 

[TrustingInHim]

I preach as if it all depends on me, but I know I could not preach effectively without the Holy Spirit..This knowledge does not prevent me from putting all I have into a sermon. I am a Calvinist because I think it is a systematic theology which comes the closest to New Testament teaching. No more and no less.

I agree with this line of thinking. I am not knowledgeable enough yet to know if I agree 100% with Calvinism, but what I know so far rings true with what the Bible teaches.

 

[webdog]

Good stuff,huh?

No. Any sermon with a heretical title doesn't fall into the "good stuff" camp.

 

[Rippon]

No. Any sermon with a heretical title doesn't fall into the "good stuff" camp.

Tis a pity that you don't read beyond titles.But I know you are kind of comfortable in your sniper-mode.