Christ the risen Saviour, not potential Saviour !

[Brightfame52]

In mans religion,, though they speak of Christ as the Saviour, they really mean that Hes merely a potential Saviour and that Salvation ultimately rests in the decision or will of the sinner. In other words, its up to the sinner to make Christ a Saviour unto them.

This fallacious reasoning is error and dishonors Christ as the Saviour of His People. for its written that He shall save His People from their sins Matt 1:21, not potentially save them !

When Christ died and afterwards rose from the dead, and ascended to the Right Hand of God, He ascended as a Prince and a Saviour Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The word Saviour means: a savior, deliverer, preserver. None of these denote possibilities, maybes, or potentially, but actuality, He actually ascended as a Saviour, deliverer, a preserver.

Some may appeal to 1 Tim 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Now does this verse state that Christ is a potential Saviour to all men ? No it doesn't, but it says God is Saviour of all men, especially of those [men] who believe !

Many pervert this scripture so it would be saying that God is a potential Saviour to all men, but an actual Saviour to them that believe. See God cant be technically a Saviour to the unsaved, for that's a contradiction, He is their God in Judgment, but not as a Saviour.

So what does the word specially mean in this verse and how can it be understood without contradicting the fact that God is a actual Saviour and not merely a Saviour, or a Saviour unto unsaved men ?

Its the greek word malista

:especially, chiefly, most of all, above all primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:—chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

So its a word Paul uses here to denote and clarify who particularly God in Christ is a Saviour to, not all men without exception, but particularly of they which are believers. In fact this verse should dispel the faulty idea of God being the Saviour of unbelievers. Sure even the saved are unbelievers naturally, however they shall be brought to Faith, because the promise is, the Just/justified shall live by Faith Rom 1:17

Folks Christ rose and ascended as a Prince and a Saviour, not a potential Saviour !

 

[Silverhair]

In mans religion,, though they speak of Christ as the Saviour, they really mean that Hes merely a potential Saviour and that Salvation ultimately rests in the decision or will of the sinner. In other words, its up to the sinner to make Christ a Saviour unto them.

This fallacious reasoning is error and dishonors Christ as the Saviour of His People. for its written that He shall save His People from their sins Matt 1:21, not potentially save them !

When Christ died and afterwards rose from the dead, and ascended to the Right Hand of God, He ascended as a Prince and a Saviour Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The word Saviour means: a savior, deliverer, preserver. None of these denote possibilities, maybes, or potentially, but actuality, He actually ascended as a Saviour, deliverer, a preserver.

Some may appeal to 1 Tim 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Now does this verse state that Christ is a potential Saviour to all men ? No it doesn't, but it says God is Saviour of all men, especially of those [men] who believe !

Many pervert this scripture so it would be saying that God is a potential Saviour to all men, but an actual Saviour to them that believe. See God cant be technically a Saviour to the unsaved, for that's a contradiction, He is their God in Judgment, but not as a Saviour.

So what does the word specially mean in this verse and how can it be understood without contradicting the fact that God is a actual Saviour and not merely a Saviour, or a Saviour unto unsaved men ?

Its the greek word malista

:especially, chiefly, most of all, above all primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:—chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

So its a word Paul uses here to denote and clarify who particularly God in Christ is a Saviour to, not all men without exception, but particularly of they which are believers. In fact this verse should dispel the faulty idea of God being the Saviour of unbelievers. Sure even the saved are unbelievers naturally, however they shall be brought to Faith, because the promise is, the Just/justified shall live by Faith Rom 1:17

Folks Christ rose and ascended as a Prince and a Saviour, not a potential Saviour !

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Brightfame52]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

In mans religion,, though they speak of Christ as the Saviour, they really mean that Hes merely a potential Saviour and that Salvation ultimately rests in the decision or will of the sinner. In other words, its up to the sinner to make Christ a Saviour unto them.

 

[DaveXR650]

In mans religion,, though they speak of Christ as the Saviour, they really mean that Hes merely a potential Saviour and that Salvation ultimately rests in the decision or will of the sinner. In other words, its up to the sinner to make Christ a Saviour unto them.

So. What should have Paul told the Philippian jailor?

 

[Brightfame52]

So. What should have Paul told the Philippian jailor?

Exactly what he told him. Did he tell him Jesus was a potential saviour ? I dont think so. He told him the word of God Acts 16:32

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

 

[DaveXR650]

Exactly what he told him. Did he tell him Jesus was a potential saviour ? I dont think so. He told him the word of God Acts 16:32

That's good and I'm glad you agree. So in Acts 17 when Paul went to Mars Hill. Some mocked, some said "we will hear again of this matter", and some believed. Now, this is not a trick question. I have no problem with believing that the ones who believed were "elect" and the ones who rejected were not. I have no problem with the idea that those who believed were known by God from the foundation of the world. But my question is this. If one of those who didn't believe there had believed, what would have happened and most importantly, how would you explain your answer to someone who was not a Calvinist?

 

[KenH]

This fallacious reasoning is error and dishonors Christ as the Saviour of His People.

Amen!

 

[Brightfame52]

That's good and I'm glad you agree. So in Acts 17 when Paul went to Mars Hill. Some mocked, some said "we will hear again of this matter", and some believed. Now, this is not a trick question. I have no problem with believing that the ones who believed were "elect" and the ones who rejected were not. I have no problem with the idea that those who believed were known by God from the foundation of the world. But my question is this. If one of those who didn't believe there had believed, what would have happened and most importantly, how would you explain your answer to someone who was not a Calvinist?

Well the sheep believe and the non sheep don't. Jesus said this Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's good and I'm glad you agree. So in Acts 17 when Paul went to Mars Hill. Some mocked, some said "we will hear again of this matter", and some believed. Now, this is not a trick question. I have no problem with believing that the ones who believed were "elect" and the ones who rejected were not. I have no problem with the idea that those who believed were known by God from the foundation of the world. But my question is this. If one of those who didn't believe there had believed, what would have happened and most importantly, how would you explain your answer to someone who was not a Calvinist?

Do you think Paul told the jailor that Christ is a potential savior? Is that the word of the Lord?

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you think Paul told the jailor that Christ is a potential savior? Is that the word of the Lord?

In a way, it is. Not that you would say it that way. But is it not true at some level at least, that the result of that situation is that if the person believes - he is saved, and if he doesn't he is lost. John Owen himself said that on authority of scripture he knew that anyone who believes in Christ will be saved. And he got out of the apparent contradiction with a predetermined election as simply that your belief is the best indication that you are elect, and that one really need not consider election or non-election at all prior to salvation.

And since we all agree that belief equals salvation while non-belief equals damnation then you still end up with the hinge pin being belief, or so it seems to me. I am OK I guess with what Owen did, just accept both doctrines as true but I am asking if you would not at least see that for many, this explanation is not satisfying and thus saying that belief is a conditions I don't think should be a damnable perversion of the gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

In mans religion,, though they speak of Christ as the Saviour, they really mean that Hes merely a potential Saviour and that Salvation ultimately rests in the decision or will of the sinner. In other words, its up to the sinner to make Christ a Saviour unto them.

This fallacious reasoning is error and dishonors Christ as the Saviour of His People. for its written that He shall save His People from their sins Matt 1:21, not potentially save them !

When Christ died and afterwards rose from the dead, and ascended to the Right Hand of God, He ascended as a Prince and a Saviour Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

The word Saviour means: a savior, deliverer, preserver. None of these denote possibilities, maybes, or potentially, but actuality, He actually ascended as a Saviour, deliverer, a preserver.

Some may appeal to 1 Tim 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Now does this verse state that Christ is a potential Saviour to all men ? No it doesn't, but it says God is Saviour of all men, especially of those [men] who believe !

Many pervert this scripture so it would be saying that God is a potential Saviour to all men, but an actual Saviour to them that believe. See God cant be technically a Saviour to the unsaved, for that's a contradiction, He is their God in Judgment, but not as a Saviour.

So what does the word specially mean in this verse and how can it be understood without contradicting the fact that God is a actual Saviour and not merely a Saviour, or a Saviour unto unsaved men ?

Its the greek word malista

:especially, chiefly, most of all, above all primary adverb μάλα mála (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:—chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

So its a word Paul uses here to denote and clarify who particularly God in Christ is a Saviour to, not all men without exception, but particularly of they which are believers. In fact this verse should dispel the faulty idea of God being the Saviour of unbelievers. Sure even the saved are unbelievers naturally, however they shall be brought to Faith, because the promise is, the Just/justified shall live by Faith Rom 1:17

Folks Christ rose and ascended as a Prince and a Saviour, not a potential Saviour !

The Calvinist can't accept Paul's words that "God is the Savior of all men."

That would mean the atonement was" the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world," as John said, the Calvinist can't accept that either.

It's said in the tense that God is the Savior of all who believe, there is no other Savior of man.

Notice that Paul lays down the condition of God being the Savior, "especially to those who believe."

The conclusion:

God is the only Savior of man, there is no other way. He is specifically the Savior of those who believe.

 

[Silverhair]

In mans religion,, though they speak of Christ as the Saviour, they really mean that Hes merely a potential Saviour and that Salvation ultimately rests in the decision or will of the sinner. In other words, its up to the sinner to make Christ a Saviour unto them.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
but whoever does not believe has already been condemned,
because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sure looks like a person has to make the choice to believe before God saves them.

 

[Brightfame52]

In a way, it is.

You started off false, no need to even read the rest. Jesus saved His people from their sins.

 

[Brightfame52]

The Calvinist can't accept Paul's words that "God is the Savior of all men

Yes and not the potential Saviour of all men.

 

[DaveXR650]

You started off false, no need to even read the rest. Jesus saved His people from their sins.

This is revealing, especially the "no need to even read the rest" part. The fact is that in the context of this, where the Philippian jailer asked "What must I do to be saved", he was not rebuked but indeed told to do something, which was specifically to believe. You cannot get around that by refusing to answer the question.

This is the whole problem with the hyper Calvinist who goes so far in what they think is honoring God's sovereignty, that they forget that the individual himself must indeed "do something" in that he must believe and that he can be told to believe.

Now, and I think the Provisionist forgets this sometimes, more is going on than being provided with the bare information regarding what Christ has done and then it is up to you to decide how to respond to this proposal of the gospel message. Most people I know, when they are saved, they describe it as almost being compelled to believe or overwhelmed with the sudden truth of the gospel, or almost as a light coming on. Or at the very minimum, they admit there is no reason, no testimony even, just at some point the truth of the gospel and the need for Christ became compelling and they must be saved. This fits very well with a sovereign work upon your will by God, yet it does not have the aspect that some of you seem to bring in where it becomes wrong somehow to encourage someone to believe or come to Christ because that would mean them doing something according to their will.

So my wish is that someone who is of this extreme deterministic view would explain this from their viewpoint rather than acting like they are above it all.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ is A Saviour/Redeemer for each and every sinner He died for and was raised again for. When He having finished His work for them, He for them obtained eternal redemption/salvation Heb 9:11-12

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


The word redemption lytrōsis:

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin
   
   He obtained for them deliverance from the penalty of sin, which is death See Rom 6:23, hence its impossible for them to go into the second death
   
   Rev 20:14
   
   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
   
   
   The second death is for the penalty of sin charged against them.

 

[DaveXR650]

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned,
but whoever does not believe has already been condemned,
because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Sure looks like a person has to make the choice to believe before God saves them.

I guess this is what I'm not understanding from @Brightfame52 . Even a strict Calvinist, who believes that regeneration precedes faith, would say that it is legitimate to bring this up to people, I suppose with the idea being that upon hearing the proposal, the elect and already regenerated ones will respond and declare their belief and come to Christ. I mean, is it true that according to @Brightfame52, if @Silverhair was to go to someone and quote Romans 10:13 or Romans 10:9 that he would be doing something wrong? Or, would it be OK as long as in saying that he really didn't believe that he was truly proposing a factual offer of salvation, but instead only acting out a preset result? This needs to be clarified.

I'll lay out my own view. I think that the offer that if you believe you will be saved is true and actual and if the person hearing that does so they really will be saved, and if not they are, at least at that point, lost. And I think that no special wording or delicacy in presenting that does any dishonor to the fact that Christ is an actual savior.

 

[Silverhair]

Dave that is just what I have been saying but it seems to have gone over BF's head.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note the conditions in those verses. Christ is the potential savior of all but only those that will freely trust in Him will be saved.

If they do not call or if they do not believe then they will not be saved.

Just because I tell someone that Christ died for them does that mean they are saved, NO it does not.

BF is under the false impression that Christ's death saves but he is wrong. We are saved by His life.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes and not the potential Saviour of all men.

If you can't understand that all men are drawn to Christ through the Cross and convicted by the Spirit of their lost condition, then free will has escaped you and will never be understood.

"If I be lifted up, will draw all me unto me."

If you deny all men are drawn through Christ on the Cross, the potential Savior will never be seen.

When or if you do see this, then you will see that being drawn is not salvation, it's the call to salvation and man must make a choice.

 

[Brightfame52]

If you can't understand that all men are drawn to Christ through the Cross and convicted by the Spirit of their lost condition, then free will has escaped you and will never be understood.

There's a difference between a Saviour and a possible or potential savior