Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Oh no drawing and salvation are synonymous
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Christ the risen Saviour, not potential Saviour !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
If the drawing is salvation then all men would be saved, but we know that's not the case.
And you will change the definition of "all men" to mean only the elect, how foolish can that be?
But as Elvis said, you're caught in a trap, you can't look back, you're indoctrinated with Calvinism.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
What bothers me, and I can't get these guys to really even discuss it, is the tendency to have a constantly moving idea of what heresy is, so that it almost seems like there will always be some new barrier put up to ensure that you are sitting at the feet of them in order to be instructed properly.
You agree that you are saved by faith alone, and then it starts being said that that won't do because if you say that you have made faith a work even though faith and works are contrasted repeatedly in scripture. So, unless I am understanding wrongly, now some, not all, but a couple of these guys are saying that to just say that faith is in some sense a "condition" for salvation that makes you guilty of heresy.
I happen to know that John Owen, Jonathan Edwards, J.C. Ryle and a score of others, some Calvinists, some moderate or not at all Calvinists, all agreed that faith is indeed a condition for salvation and that faith is on the part of the person. I can give references. But they will not respond except to repeat the proposition that you cannot believe that salvation is all of God unless you also deny that faith is the condition on our part, for salvation.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes drawing is the application of salvation and that's why I know the atonement is limited to the elect, all of them.
Ultimately they believe that salvation is their reward for believing, but they would never overtly state it
Scripture overtly states that salvation is NOT by the will of man, but of Him who shows mercy
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
I agree
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Notice that Christ as risen Saviour gives two blessings in our text Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.Christ gives repentance, its a Saviourhood blessing. Its the word metanoia:
a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
As Saviour those Christ saves He gives,furnishes endues them with repentance, a change of mind He gives them repentance towards God Acts 20:21
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Genuine repentance towards God is solely in the hands of Christ to give, and so true Gospel Ministers Preach it in His Name Lk 24:47
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
An unrepentant sinner[final impenitent] cant possibly have Christ as their Saviour or something went wrong, and would contradict Christ's Office as Prince and Saviour
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.Christ gives repentance, its a Saviourhood blessing. Its the word metanoia:
a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
As Saviour those Christ saves He gives,furnishes endues them with repentance, a change of mind He gives them repentance towards God Acts 20:21
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Genuine repentance towards God is solely in the hands of Christ to give, and so true Gospel Ministers Preach it in His Name Lk 24:47
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
An unrepentant sinner[final impenitent] cant possibly have Christ as their Saviour or something went wrong, and would contradict Christ's Office as Prince and Saviour
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” BSB
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." NASB
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people N67 to myself." NET
N67 tn Grk "all." The word "people" is not in the Greek text but is supplied for stylistic reasons and for clarity (cf. KJV "all men").
The bible says all people will be saved BF, you say that drawing equals salvation, so by your words all people will be saved, that is universalism and that is heresy.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
All that are drawn are saved. It's therefore limited to the saved
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Where do you come up with these oddball ideas BF?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
In your arrogance you think you were picked out before creation.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The scripture
'...Whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved' (Joel 2:32; Romans 10:13). There are no ifs and no buts there. No one who has repented of his sins and trusted in Christ for salvation will be turned away (John 6:37). When a preacher calls on people to trust in Christ, he should never put conditions on their salvation - "if you are one of the elect," or "if God credits your faith as righteousness." 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' (Acts 16:31). To be saved is to be one of the elect.
But the Scripture makes it plain that unless God opens the heart of someone to believe, he never will. 'The natural man does not receive things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him' (1 Cor. 2:14). And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men preferred darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:7-8). If God did not save some, no one would be saved.
'And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed' (Acts 13:48). The Scriptures teach that before the foundation of the world, God the Father gave to the Son a vast crowd of sinners whom He had chosen for salvation (John 6:39). The Son has redeemed these people and not one of them will fail to be saved. They are His sheep, and they bear two distinguishing marks: they hear the Shepherd's voice and they follow Him (John 10:26-28). 'My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life ....... My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.'
Therefore, as I keep saying, we must hold to both parts of John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.....' There is Particular, Definite Redemption. They will all come. But at the same time, 'And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' Come to Christ! Don't waste time wondering if you are elect or not; just come! Your warrant for salvation is not that you are elect; it is that you are a sinner, and the Lord Jesus came into the world to save such as you (1 Tim. 1:15). But when you arrive in heaven, as you will if you are trusting in Christ, then you will discover, if you haven't already, that God has loved you with an everlasting love, and drawn you to Him with lovingkindness (Jeremiah 31:3).
There nothing arrogant about it. We realize we deserve hell and its only Gods mercy and grace that delivered us from it.
We believe that He truly saves us just like Jonah Paul and Abraham. None who were seeking Hod
I thought Christ said, "whosoever will let him come."
And then He shows the mercy.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Are you not the ones that say you were picked out prior to creation? What made you any different from all those other sinners?
But the real question is how do you know that you were actually picked? You can hope you were but you really have no way of knowing do you. You can't say it is because you believe as even "faith" had to be given to you so it is not your faith is it?
So your whole hope for salvation is based on what?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But Jonah Paul and Abraham all believed in God prior to being saved not after as your religion states.
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved" Calvinist Loraine Boettner
Calvinism has a person saved prior to them believing in Christ Jesus.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
That would be the regenerated made willing in the day of Christs power. He wouldn't be talking to people like Jn 5:40
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
So they wouldn't fall into that group Jesus is calling.