Christ was Arminian?

Ray Berrian · Apr 18, 2003

Yelsew,

Your post that started, 'What you say is right Bob Ryan,' is an excellent post. It is true to God's Word and that is what we are after anyway. Thanks!

BobRyan · Apr 18, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
What you say is right BobRyan, but Family relationships in Heaven will not have the meaning or importance they do in this life. After the judgment we have no insight into the activities in heaven or on the New Earth or New Jerusalem. However we are told that there will be no marrying or marriage in heaven.

The fact that Angels don't "marry" does not stop them from seeing us, having concern for us, and loving as "The God of Love" does - but not infinitely so.

God is not creating a heaven of "ignorance" so that joy is based on pithing the brain.

Yelsew -- So why would there be other family considerations? We are all brother's and sisters, but I believe there will be no gender either. What purpose would gender serve?

I am not arguing for gender or marriage. I am arguing for intelligence and knowledge and love. I am arguing that it INCREASES in heaven instead of decreasing to the level of brute beasts. I am arguing that the amazing hight of love seen in 1Cor 13 is the direction to which we go regarding our loved ones RATHER then "heartless disconcern".

Yelsew

Let me take this one step further and say that I believe we will not have flesh bodies either. I believe we will recognize each other by our spiritual attributes. Will spouses recognize each other; Parents their children; siblings each other? Sure, why not?

They will recognize AND they will love.

They will love mankind AS THEMSELVES.

They will love God with all their heart.

They will not express heartless disconcern for their loved ones who "Suffer torment in the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His saints" Rev 14:10

Yelsew -
Will they grieve for the ones who did not make it? I don't think so. I think those will be blotted from our memory.

That is the "pithing of the brain" model I reference before. "Joy based on ignorance about your own dear suffering children".

But notice in Rev 21 - it is only AFTER the events of the lake of fire have completed AND the New Earth is created - that "every tear is wiped away".

Whether or not you accept that solution - it would be hard to argue for the presence of God as the place of "increased ignorance and heartless concern for our suffering loved ones".

In the Arminian scenario I presented you may want to introduce that solution - however Arminianism itself does not require that our brains are pithed.

In fact - the Arminian position argues from "Compelling evidence". That is - it is the INCREASE in level of detail and compelling evidence that further motivates decisions for obedience.

In Christ,

Bob

Yelsew · Apr 19, 2003

The fact that Angels don't "marry" does not stop them from seeing us, having concern for us, and loving as "The God of Love" does - but not infinitely so

I don't think Jesus was speaking of "angels marrying". He was saying to humans that there is no marriage or marrying in heaven.

God is not creating a heaven of "ignorance" so that joy is based on pithing the brain.

I don't think that what I said is that God "dumbs us down", but that he blots the pain from our memory, for scripture says there will be no pain or sorrow in heaven. Dwelling on unbelievers brings pain.

I am not arguing for gender or marriage. I am arguing for intelligence and knowledge and love. I am arguing that it INCREASES in heaven instead of decreasing to the level of brute beasts. I am arguing that the amazing hight of love seen in 1Cor 13 is the direction to which we go regarding our loved ones RATHER then "heartless disconcern".

Perhaps but you are confusing issues. Why should we be concerned over that which we have no control? After we find ourselves in heaven, the lost are God's concern and not ours.

They will recognize AND they will love.

They will love mankind AS THEMSELVES.

They will love God with all their heart.

They will not express heartless disconcern for their loved ones who "Suffer torment in the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His saints" Rev 14:10 </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Rev 14:9-13. A third angel followed, shouting aloud, "All those who worship the beast and his statue, or have had themselves branded on the hand or forehead, will be made to drink the wine of God's fury which is ready, undiluted, in his cup of retribution; in fire and brimstone they will be tortured in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb and the smoke of their torture will rise for ever and ever. There will be no respite, night or day, for those who worship the beast or its statue or accept branding with its name." This is why there must be perseverance in the saints who keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say to me, "Write down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord! Blessed indeed, the Spirit says; now they can rest for ever after their work, since their good deeds go with them."

</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry but this does not support your "looking over the rampart of heaven...." theory. It is prophesy of what happens to those who do not "die in the Lord". You will not be able to view the scene from Heaven, you will be too busy worshipping and praising God.

That is the "pithing of the brain" model I reference before. "Joy based on ignorance about your own dear suffering children"

Blotting from memory is not "pithing of the brain". It is removing from memory those who would not accept God. If you have no memory of them why would you seek a rampart from which to watch their agony? Why would you agonize over that for which you have no recollection?

But notice in Rev 21 - it is only AFTER the events of the lake of fire have completed AND the New Earth is created - that "every tear is wiped away".

Whether or not you accept that solution - it would be hard to argue for the presence of God as the place of "increased ignorance and heartless concern for our suffering loved ones".

In the Arminian scenario I presented you may want to introduce that solution - however Arminianism itself does not require that our brains are pithed.

In fact - the Arminian position argues from "Compelling evidence". That is - it is the INCREASE in level of detail and compelling evidence that further motivates decisions for obedience.

The fact you are overlooking Bob Ryan is that the instant you take your last breath in your corrupt flesh body, your spirit departs the flesh, and you ain't lookin' back! You have no more concern for this life. Your spirit is free at last and you are "present with the Lord" as Paul puts it. The issue at that point is neither a Calvinist stumbling block nor an Arminian sledge hammer. It is simple and well defined in scripture. In the same manner that you think you will be concerned for the lost after this life, but you won't, this issue disappears for you when you pass on.

[ April 19, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Maybe you should review your answer and observe that while you speculate that "most will be saved" no matter what Christ said in Matt 7,

Frankly, One-Note Bob, the just about the only way I see a majority of people being in hell(not just limiting the universe being discussed to those in Matthew chapter 7 who are capable of showing repentance and faith but talking about all people ever conceived)is if those incapable of showing repentance and faith, such as those who die in the womb or die very young, end up in hell. Simple population mathematics dictates this without one even holding to postmillennial eschatology. If you would stop for a second and honestly consider this, I think you will agree.

But then again maybe you believe, based on your interpretation of Matthew chapter 7, that those who die in the womb or at a very young age do end up in hell. But that is certainly not what I understand Jesus to be teaching.

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

Good rebuttal of Bob's position, Yelsew.

Yelsew · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
Good rebuttal of Bob's position, Yelsew.

Perhaps, but there remain valid issues that separate Calvin and Arminius.

Yelsew · Apr 19, 2003

RobRyan, I must add the phrase that my mother always said to me concerning the afterlife when I expressed concern for those who did not arrive in heaven.

"only one life 'twil soon be past, only what's done for Christ will last"

Our concern for the lost must be exercised in this life. There is no evangelism in the next!

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
there remain valid issues that separate Calvin and Arminius.

The bottom line is that all of us in this forum would agree on 90% of doctrine, even on soteriology. We just spend our time banging each other over the head over the other 10%. For instance, we all agree that a person must come to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith, we just disagree on what goes on underneath the surface to bring it about.

Personally, I don't care about the problems between Calvin and Arminius and the baggage that is attached to both of those men. I think the debate is more correctly framed as free grace vs. free will rather than Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and helps to take the issue of Bible commentators off the table as it should be so that we can focus our discussions on doctrine.

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

quote:
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God is not creating a heaven of "ignorance" so that joy is based on pithing the brain.
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Yelsew
I don't think that what I said is that God "dumbs us down", but that he blots the pain from our memory, for scripture says there will be no pain or sorrow in heaven. Dwelling on unbelievers brings pain.

Zapping the Mother and Father's brains so they no longer show concern for the screams and agonies of their precious daughter writhing in torment -- may not "Seem like pithing the brain" to you, but there is a large group who are willing to look at that for what it is - simply a theory to escape the scenario described, not Bible fact teaching "unconcern by parents for their children".

quote:Bob
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I am not arguing for gender or marriage. I am arguing for intelligence and knowledge and love. I am arguing that it INCREASES in heaven instead of decreasing to the level of brute beasts. I am arguing that the amazing hight of love seen in 1Cor 13 is the direction to which we go regarding our loved ones RATHER then "heartless disconcern".
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Yelsew
Perhaps but you are confusing issues. Why should we be concerned over that which we have no control? After we find ourselves in heaven, the lost are God's concern and not ours.

In a sovereign God's universe - we can just as easily say that today as then. Heartless unconcern is never the model of scripture. You propose it to "Solve the problem" but no scripture endorses that a God of love piths the brain of the loving Father and Mother so their response to the screams of their dauther is "that is God's concern not ours".

The monsterous heartlessly cold nature that could possibly do such a thing is not taught in scripture by the "God of Love" NOR by His primary rules of LOVING others as yourself - of doing good EVEN to your enemies, how much MORE to have concern for your precious daughter.

quote:Bob
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They will recognize AND they will love.

They will love mankind AS THEMSELVES.

They will love God with all their heart.

They will not express heartless disconcern for their loved ones who "Suffer torment in the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His saints" Rev 14:10
quote:
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Rev 14:9-13. A third angel followed, shouting aloud, "All those who worship the beast and his statue, or have had themselves branded on the hand or forehead, will be made to drink the wine of God's fury which is ready, undiluted, in his cup of retribution; in fire and brimstone they will be tortured in the presence of the holy saints and the Lamb and the smoke of their torture will rise for ever and ever. ."
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Yelsew

I'm sorry but this does not support your "looking over the rampart of heaven...." theory.

The wicked - the lost - the precious daughter - suffers IN the Presence of the Lamb and of His saints.

No possible escape from that - no turning a blind eye while your child suffers IN your presence.

No idea that you can not "see what is in your presence".

quote:
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That is the "pithing of the brain" model I reference before. "Joy based on ignorance about your own dear suffering children"
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Yelsew
Blotting from memory is not "pithing of the brain". It is removing from memory those who would not accept God.

One man's pithed brain is another man's "zapped brain". Say it as it pleases you to say it.

Yelsew
If you have no memory of them why would you seek a rampart from which to watch their agony? Why would you agonize over that for which you have no recollection?

I agree - that heartless unconcern for the screams of the precious child - would solve the scenario by avoiding it altogether. I agree.

quote: Bob
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But notice in Rev 21 - it is only AFTER the events of the lake of fire have completed AND the New Earth is created - that "every tear is wiped away".

Whether or not you accept that solution - it would be hard to argue for the presence of God as the place of "increased ignorance and heartless concern for our suffering loved ones".

In the Arminian scenario I presented you may want to introduce that solution - however Arminianism itself does not require that our brains are pithed.

In fact - the Arminian position argues from "Compelling evidence". That is - it is the INCREASE in level of detail and compelling evidence that further motivates decisions for obedience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yelsew
The fact you are overlooking Bob Ryan is that the instant you take your last breath in your corrupt flesh body, your spirit departs the flesh, and you ain't lookin' back! You have no more concern for this life.

Nothing in scripture supports that view of heartless disconcern for the lost once you are in heaven.

Yelsew In the same manner that you think you will be concerned for the lost after this life, but you won't, this issue disappears for you when you pass on.

Heartless unconcern for the fate of your child - is not the Arminian "full disclosure" motivation by CHOICE based on compelling evidence - model and even for Calvinists - it is a bit hard to swallow.

Fortunately - it is not promoted in scripture either.

In Christ,

Bob

Yelsew · Apr 19, 2003

-- King James
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

-- American Standard
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,and in the presence of the Lamb:

-- Living Bible
Revelation 14:10 must drink the wine of the anger of God; it is poured out undiluted into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

-- Revised Standard
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

-- Simple English
Revelation 14:10 he must drink from God's punishing wine. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of punishment. That person will be tortured in front of the holy angels and the Lamb with fire and sulfur.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
Revelation 14:10 kai' auto'spi'etai ek tou' oi'nou tou' thumou' tou' Theou' tou'kekerasme'nou akra'tou en too' poteeri'oo tee's orgee's autou'kai' basanisthee'setai en puri' kai' thei'oo enoo'pion ange'loonhagi'oon kai' enoo'pion tou' Arni'ou.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Revelation 14:10 kai autospietai ek tou oinou tou thumou tou Theou toukekerasmenou akratou en to poterio tes orges autoukai basanisthesetai en puri kai theio enopion angelonhagion kai enopion tou Arniou.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Revelation 14:10 will be made to drink the wine of God's fury which is ready, undiluted, in his cup of retribution; in fire and brimstone they will be tortured in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb

-- Young's Bible
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

-- Darby's Bible
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God prepared unmixed in the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Revelation 14:10 he shall drink the wine of God's anger which stands ready, undiluted, in the cup of His fury, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

-- Webster's Bible
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Does this change your persuasion?

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

Excellent post, Yelsew!

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

The term for Saints in Rev 14:10 is literally "Holy Ones" - the NASB translates this as "SAINTS" in a number of places.

You will BE there - and the lost will suffer IN the very presence of the Lamb.

Notice that in Rev 14:1-6 you are told that the saints ARE IN the presence of the Lamb and that they stay there.

In 1Thess 4 we are told that the saints "are EVER WITH the Lord" after the rapture.

So when we find that the Lamb and the "Holy Ones" are observing the fate of the lost - AND that the lost suffer torment IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb AND His Holy ones - (and when we admit that the SAINTS are EVER WITH Christ after the rapture)

Then "looking out over the ramparts of heaven and SEEING the suffering of your precious child - as Abraham SEES the rich man in Luke 16" - is indeed in the realm of possibility.

You "suppose it is better" if God does not allow you to have the thought to give a single care about that horrible event happening to your precious daughter as she cries in agony.

But that is the "monster" view of God that is NOT presented in scripture. It is merely imagined in some circles as a way "not to think" about the scenario for which they have no Calvinist answer.

But in the Arminian model it is not IGNORNANCE that makes the system work - but "full disclosure". In the Arminian model it is God REVEALING more and more truth - NOT covering up more and more horrible atrocities to get people "happy".

In christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

The truth is that the two scenarios create a razor sharp distinction between the Arminian and Calvinist views of God and salvation and hell.

The dodge "we will not be allowed to think about it or care about our suffering little ones" - does little to cover up the obvious. It only presents an even more horrible view of the torturers.

In Christ,

Bob

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

I agree with Yelsew and totally reject One-Note Bob's silly illustration, but just to play along with his game, here's how the illustration should read -

When the Calvinistic Christian finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his own son now writhing in the agony of punishment in hell - he may well run to his sovereign Lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! I do not understand why You did not choose to save my son during his few short years on earth. But I totally trust You and I know that ALL things are for Your glory. And I know that You are righteous in ALL Your ways. I praise Your great and holy name. I will ALWAYS trust You whenever I do not understand Your ways."

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

Ken "I agree with Yelsew and totally reject One-Note Bob's silly illustration"

Oh come on Ken - stop toying with us. Tell us what you really think.

Bob

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The term for Saints in Rev 14:10 is literally "Holy Ones" - the NASB translates this as "SAINTS" in a number of places.

Yet you cannot find a single mainstream translation that uses the word saints in this verse. For that matter, I would like for you to prove from reliable sources that the same word for saints used elsewhere is also used in Revelation 14:10. And I would like for you to prove from reliable translation sources, if the proof in the previous sentence can be offered, why the word saints should be used here instead of angels.

I guess according to you all of the translators through hundreds of years have messed this verse up, and now in 2003 Bob Ryan has surpassed them all in knowledge and can give the world the correct translation. Are you going to write a book about this, Bob?

BobRyan · Apr 19, 2003

Ken provides his view of the Calvinist future --
When the Calvinistic Christian finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his own son now writhing in the agony of punishment in hell - he may well run to his sovereign Lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! I do not understand why You did not choose to save my son during his[ few short years on earth. But I totally trust You and I know that ALL things are for Your glory. And I know that You are righteous in ALL Your ways. I praise Your great and holy name. I will ALWAYS trust You whenever I do not understand Your ways."

#1. In Yelsew's model Christ can not say that to you - you can not ask the question. He tortures your child "in secret" and you express no love or care for them.

#2. Your scenario is the same as mine in the Calvinist case - the Parents concern for their precious daughter suffering in agony ENDS with their saying "Praise God - He is good to ME if not my child and THAT is what counts!! What a great and loving God!! It is all about Me after all!!".

The joy of your good outcome far outweighs any selfless concern you might have been tempted to have for your precious little daughter suffering the torments of hell - so the Calvinist goes away "happy".

It is the perfect Calvinist solution. (So we might "wonder" why Calvinists on this board cringe at the repeat of that perfect Calvinist future).

In Christ,

Bob

KenH · Apr 19, 2003

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1. In Yelsew's model Christ can not say that to you - you can not ask the question. He tortures your child "in secret" and you express no love or care for them.

Bob, as I said I agree with Yelsew. I was simply having fun with your silly game you keep playing ad nauseam.

Just admit it, Bob. Between Yelsew's right on the money battering of your position and my playing along by skillfully presenting a more accurate scenario, you're toast in this thread.

Eric B · Apr 19, 2003

Isn't Hell supposed to be separation from God? Look at the context. Rev. 14:11 is not even talking about the final judgment, which doesn't even come until 1000 years after all of this. It's the human kingdoms and power that is being reduced to "smoke" now-- this is the eternal destruction of the evil human governments and societies, not [yet] the people's souls. And they have "no rest day or night" during the dreadful plagues that are yet to be described.

According to the last post [Ken, posted April 19, 2003 07:06 PM-- it was last when I began typing], this "mystery" of why some are chosen and not others will apparently remain a mystery even when we get there. But God said He concluded all in sin that He may have mercy on all, not leave some trapped. People's failure to receive mercy must then be their choice to reject what they could have accepted, not God passing them over, and having their loved ones be indifferent to their punishment, because that punishment was God's goal all along (for a "hidden purpose", other than that person's own choice).

Yelsew · Apr 19, 2003

Notice that in Rev 14:1-6 you are told that the saints ARE IN the presence of the Lamb and that they stay there.

Rev 14:1. Next in my vision I saw Mount Zion, and standing on it the Lamb who had with him a hundred and forty-four thousand people, all with his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
2. I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of the ocean or the roar of thunder; it was like the sound of harpists playing their harps.
3. There before the throne they were singing a new hymn in the presence of the four living creatures and the elders, a hymn that could be learnt only by the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the world.
4. These are the sons who have kept their virginity and not been defiled with women; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they, out of all people, have been redeemed to be the first-fruits for God and for the Lamb.
5. No lie was found in their mouths and no fault can be found in them.

Angels announce the Day of Judgement

6. Then I saw another angel, flying high overhead, sent to announce the gospel of eternity to all who live on the earth, every nation, race, language and tribe.
7. He was calling, "Fear God and glorify him, because the time has come for him to sit in judgement; worship the maker of heaven and earth and sea and the springs of water."

8. A second angel followed him, calling, "Babylon has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen, Babylon which gave the whole world the wine of retribution to drink."

-- King James
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

-- American Standard
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

-- Living Bible
Revelation 14:1 Then I saw a Lamb standing on Mount Zion in Jerusalem, and with him were 144,000 who had his Name and his Father's Name written on their foreheads.

-- Revised Standard
Revelation 14:1 THEN I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

-- Simple English
Revelation 14:1 I looked and there was a Lamb. He was standing on Mount Zion. 144,000 people were with him. They had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
Revelation 14:1 Kai' ei'don, kai' idou' to' Arni'on hesto's epi' to'o'ros Sioo'n kai' met autou' hekato'n tessera'konta te'ssareschilia'des e'chousai to' o'noma autou' kai' to' o'noma tou'Patro's autou' gegramme'non epi' too'n metoo'poon autoo'n.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Revelation 14:1 Kai eidon, kai idou to Arnion hestos epi tooros Sion kai met autou hekaton tesserakonta tessareschiliades echousai to onoma autou kai to onoma touPatros autou gegrammenon epi ton metopon auton.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Revelation 14:1 Next in my vision I saw Mount Zion, and standing on it the Lamb who had with him a hundred and forty-four thousand people, all with his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

-- Young's Bible
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;

-- Darby's Bible
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing upon mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and I saw the Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 people, having His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

-- Webster's Bible
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and lo, a lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him a hundred [and] forty four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Greek & Hebrew Transliteration

[Rev 14:1] And I looked <eido>, and, lo <idou>, a Lamb <arnion> stood <histemi> on <epi> the mount <oros> Sion <Sion>, and with him an hundred <hekaton> forty <tessarakonta> and four <tessares> thousand <chilias>, having <echo> his Father's <pater> name <onoma> written <grapho> in their foreheads <metopon>.
[Rev 14:2] And I heard <akouo> a voice <phone> from heaven <ouranos>, as the voice <phone> of many <polus> waters <hudor>, and as the voice <phone> of a great <megas> thunder <bronte>: and I heard <akouo> the voice <phone> of harpers <kitharoidos> harping <kitharizo> with their harps <kithara>:
[Rev 14:3] And they sung <aido> as it were a new <kainos> song <oide> before <enopion> the throne <thronos>, and before <enopion> the four <tessares> beasts <zoon>, and the elders <presbuteros>: and no <oudeis> man <oudeis> could <dunamai> learn <manthano> that song <oide> but the hundred <hekaton> and forty <tessarakonta> and four <tessares> thousand <chilias>, which <ho> were redeemed <agorazo> from the earth <ge>.
[Rev 14:4] These <houtos> are they which <hos> were not defiled <moluno> with women <gune>; for they are virgins <parthenos>. These <houtos> are they which <ho> follow <akoloutheo> the Lamb <arnion> whithersoever <hopou - an> he goeth <hupago>. These <houtos> were redeemed <agorazo> from among men <anthropos>, being the firstfruits <aparche> unto God <theos> and to the Lamb <arnion>.
[Rev 14:5] And in their mouth <stoma> was found <heurisko> no <ou> guile <dolos>: for they are without <amomos> fault <amomos> before <enopion> the throne <thronos> of God <theos>.
[Rev 14:6] And I saw <eido> another <allos> angel <aggelos> fly <petomai> in the midst <mesouranema> of heaven <mesouranema>, having <echo> the everlasting <aionios> gospel <euaggelion> to preach <euaggelizo> unto them that dwell <katoikeo> on <epi> the earth <ge>, and to every <pas> nation <ethnos>, and kindred <phule>, and tongue <glossa>, and people <laos>,

Please show us the word "saints" in any of these translations. Notice the phrase 144 thousand throughout! They are different than "The saints" They are described in the text, notice their attributes!

Then "looking out over the ramparts of heaven and SEEING the suffering of your precious child - as Abraham SEES the rich man in Luke 16" - is indeed in the realm of possibility.

Perhaps, but a parable only illustrating the need for each to come to belief based on the scriptures.

Your theory simply does not wash when evaluated against scripture.

Christ was Arminian?

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