Christ was Arminian?

Yelsew,

Your post that started, 'What you say is right Bob Ryan,' is an excellent post. It is true to God's Word and that is what we are after anyway. Thanks!

 

I don't think Jesus was speaking of "angels marrying". He was saying to humans that there is no marriage or marrying in heaven.

I don't think that what I said is that God "dumbs us down", but that he blots the pain from our memory, for scripture says there will be no pain or sorrow in heaven. Dwelling on unbelievers brings pain.

Perhaps but you are confusing issues. Why should we be concerned over that which we have no control? After we find ourselves in heaven, the lost are God's concern and not ours.

</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry but this does not support your "looking over the rampart of heaven...." theory. It is prophesy of what happens to those who do not "die in the Lord". You will not be able to view the scene from Heaven, you will be too busy worshipping and praising God.

Blotting from memory is not "pithing of the brain". It is removing from memory those who would not accept God. If you have no memory of them why would you seek a rampart from which to watch their agony? Why would you agonize over that for which you have no recollection?

The fact you are overlooking Bob Ryan is that the instant you take your last breath in your corrupt flesh body, your spirit departs the flesh, and you ain't lookin' back! You have no more concern for this life. Your spirit is free at last and you are "present with the Lord" as Paul puts it. The issue at that point is neither a Calvinist stumbling block nor an Arminian sledge hammer. It is simple and well defined in scripture. In the same manner that you think you will be concerned for the lost after this life, but you won't, this issue disappears for you when you pass on.

[ April 19, 2003, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Frankly, One-Note Bob, the just about the only way I see a majority of people being in hell(not just limiting the universe being discussed to those in Matthew chapter 7 who are capable of showing repentance and faith but talking about all people ever conceived)is if those incapable of showing repentance and faith, such as those who die in the womb or die very young, end up in hell. Simple population mathematics dictates this without one even holding to postmillennial eschatology. If you would stop for a second and honestly consider this, I think you will agree.

But then again maybe you believe, based on your interpretation of Matthew chapter 7, that those who die in the womb or at a very young age do end up in hell. But that is certainly not what I understand Jesus to be teaching.

 

Good rebuttal of Bob's position, Yelsew.

 

Perhaps, but there remain valid issues that separate Calvin and Arminius.

 

RobRyan, I must add the phrase that my mother always said to me concerning the afterlife when I expressed concern for those who did not arrive in heaven.

"only one life 'twil soon be past, only what's done for Christ will last"

Our concern for the lost must be exercised in this life. There is no evangelism in the next!

 

The bottom line is that all of us in this forum would agree on 90% of doctrine, even on soteriology. We just spend our time banging each other over the head over the other 10%. For instance, we all agree that a person must come to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith, we just disagree on what goes on underneath the surface to bring it about.

Personally, I don't care about the problems between Calvin and Arminius and the baggage that is attached to both of those men. I think the debate is more correctly framed as free grace vs. free will rather than Calvinism vs. Arminianism, and helps to take the issue of Bible commentators off the table as it should be so that we can focus our discussions on doctrine.

 

-- King James
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

-- American Standard
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels,and in the presence of the Lamb:

-- Living Bible
Revelation 14:10 must drink the wine of the anger of God; it is poured out undiluted into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.

-- Revised Standard
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

-- Simple English
Revelation 14:10 he must drink from God's punishing wine. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of punishment. That person will be tortured in front of the holy angels and the Lamb with fire and sulfur.

-- Transliterated, Pronounceable
Revelation 14:10 kai' auto'spi'etai ek tou' oi'nou tou' thumou' tou' Theou' tou'kekerasme'nou akra'tou en too' poteeri'oo tee's orgee's autou'kai' basanisthee'setai en puri' kai' thei'oo enoo'pion ange'loonhagi'oon kai' enoo'pion tou' Arni'ou.

-- Transliterated, Unaccented
Revelation 14:10 kai autospietai ek tou oinou tou thumou tou Theou toukekerasmenou akratou en to poterio tes orges autoukai basanisthesetai en puri kai theio enopion angelonhagion kai enopion tou Arniou.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Revelation 14:10 will be made to drink the wine of God's fury which is ready, undiluted, in his cup of retribution; in fire and brimstone they will be tortured in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb

-- Young's Bible
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,

-- Darby's Bible
Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God prepared unmixed in the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.

-- Weymouth's New Testament
Revelation 14:10 he shall drink the wine of God's anger which stands ready, undiluted, in the cup of His fury, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

-- Webster's Bible
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Does this change your persuasion?

 

Excellent post, Yelsew!

 

I agree with Yelsew and totally reject One-Note Bob's silly illustration, but just to play along with his game, here's how the illustration should read -

When the Calvinistic Christian finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his own son now writhing in the agony of punishment in hell - he may well run to his sovereign Lord with the cry "Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! I do not understand why You did not choose to save my son during his few short years on earth. But I totally trust You and I know that ALL things are for Your glory. And I know that You are righteous in ALL Your ways. I praise Your great and holy name. I will ALWAYS trust You whenever I do not understand Your ways."

 

Yet you cannot find a single mainstream translation that uses the word saints in this verse. For that matter, I would like for you to prove from reliable sources that the same word for saints used elsewhere is also used in Revelation 14:10. And I would like for you to prove from reliable translation sources, if the proof in the previous sentence can be offered, why the word saints should be used here instead of angels.

I guess according to you all of the translators through hundreds of years have messed this verse up, and now in 2003 Bob Ryan has surpassed them all in knowledge and can give the world the correct translation. Are you going to write a book about this, Bob?

 

Bob, as I said I agree with Yelsew. I was simply having fun with your silly game you keep playing ad nauseam.

Just admit it, Bob. Between Yelsew's right on the money battering of your position and my playing along by skillfully presenting a more accurate scenario, you're toast in this thread.

 

Isn't Hell supposed to be separation from God? Look at the context. Rev. 14:11 is not even talking about the final judgment, which doesn't even come until 1000 years after all of this. It's the human kingdoms and power that is being reduced to "smoke" now-- this is the eternal destruction of the evil human governments and societies, not [yet] the people's souls. And they have "no rest day or night" during the dreadful plagues that are yet to be described.

According to the last post [Ken, posted April 19, 2003 07:06 PM-- it was last when I began typing], this "mystery" of why some are chosen and not others will apparently remain a mystery even when we get there. But God said He concluded all in sin that He may have mercy on all, not leave some trapped. People's failure to receive mercy must then be their choice to reject what they could have accepted, not God passing them over, and having their loved ones be indifferent to their punishment, because that punishment was God's goal all along (for a "hidden purpose", other than that person's own choice).

 

Greek & Hebrew Transliteration

Please show us the word "saints" in any of these translations. Notice the phrase 144 thousand throughout! They are different than "The saints" They are described in the text, notice their attributes!

Perhaps, but a parable only illustrating the need for each to come to belief based on the scriptures.

Your theory simply does not wash when evaluated against scripture.