Christ was Arminian?

[Frogman]

Do you see why we think your Doctrines of Grace contradict the true justice and love of God for all of His created human beings.

No, but I do see how they exalt man and fly contrary to scripture.

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few?

Do you see why we think your Doctrines of Grace contradict the true justice and love of God for all of His created human beings.

Not in my case as I am post-mill and believe most will be saved. And I also agree with Charles Spurgeon when he stated that Christ Jesus must have the pre-eminence and He will have more people than Satan will.

Now you Arminians still have the problem in your theology of most people ending up in hell according to your scheme. Therefore, you have no advantage in this regard to Calvinists and it is a very poor argument on your part as it does not differentiate the ultimate outcome of your scheme from that of Calvinism.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I have an honest question. How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about? [Matthew 7:13-14]

If this is an honest question, how can you ask it? We have answered it many times. God does not select anyone for hell. They go there of their own free rejection of Christ. It is a great matter of shouting that he selects even one (cf Luke 15 and the joy in heaven over one sinner that repents). That he selects more than one is even a greater reason for shouting.

I think that we have reason to rejoice in our Doctrine of Grace because God overlooks no human being as to his or her personal salvation. All He asks is to believe and trust in Jesus. [John 3:16]

But the truth is that in your "doctrine of grace" he overlooks everyone because he leaves them in their state of deadness as defined in Eph 2:1-3 and Eph 4:17-19. How is that grace?

Do you see why we think your Doctrines of Grace contradict the true justice and love of God for all of His created human beings.

No.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

You again have taken this parable out of context. You said, 'It is a great matter of shouting that he selects even one (cf Luke 15 and the joy in heaven over one sinner that repents).'

Jesus alludes to the idea that even if ninety nine sheep were saved He is going to go out to find even the one lost sinner. This concept of Jesus shows His longing to save all sinners. [Luke 15:4-7] Its not good to make up theology as you go along; exegete my friend, exegete.

'I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, who need no repentance.'

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken the Spurgeonite,

Augustine in his mind and heart got these ideas of a great incoming Kingdom of God where the church at last will bring in a grand and glorious influx of believers. His "City of God" and Calvin's Geneva were to become the beginning of their brainstorm.

If you think that the church is going to be in the majority and only a relative few sinners lost you folks are delusional. Jesus said, {the relative 'few' there would be who would find life in God. [Matthew 7:14]

Every nation around Iraq has a 98% belief in Allah rather than Jesus. You have your work cut out for you. Even in our supposed Christian nation the people are caught in all manner of awful sins that hardly speak of the glorious and flourishing church of the living God. I agree that we should faithfully witness and preach the Gospel but neither you or your great, great grandchildren will witness the majority on their way to Heaven. Again, try to fathom Matthew 7:13-14].

 

[KenH]

Hey, Ray, unless you think that all those that die in the womb or as young children end up in hell, you have probably either at least half of all people ever conceived or a large plurality. Then for me, as a postmillennialist, I believe there will be several hundred years when most people are indeed Christians(don't even dispensationalists believe that in their literal, physical millenial rule by Christ?).

Nothing delusional there, Ray. Unless you believe babies who die go to hell. You don't believe that, or do you, Ray?

 

[DanielFive]

Here's a link to an excellent Spurgeon sermon.

Any Arminians care to comment? Spurgeon on Free-Will

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
Hey, Ray, unless you think that all those that die in the womb or as young children end up in hell, you have probably either at least half of all people ever conceived or a large plurality. Then for me, as a postmillennialist, I believe there will be several hundred years when most people are indeed Christians(don't even dispensationalists believe that in their literal, physical millenial rule by Christ?).

Nothing delusional there, Ray. Unless you believe babies who die go to hell. You don't believe that, or do you, Ray?

You're a Calvinist, believing in Total Depravity. Man is condemned by his sin nature, even in the womb. Right so far? If Yes, then you believe that aborted babies go to hell!

Non-Calvinists do not believe in Total depravity. Therefore until one sins by their own volition, they are sinless. Thus aborted babies do not go to hell because of sin.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by enda:
Here's a link to an excellent Spurgeon sermon.

Any Arminians care to comment? Spurgeon on Free-Will

Excellent post enda Amen!!!

Amen! Bro. Spurgeon

Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
You're a Calvinist, believing in Total Depravity. Man is condemned by his sin nature, even in the womb. Right so far? If Yes, then you believe that aborted babies go to hell!

I would say you are telling an outright lie, Yelsew, but you may be simply grossly ignorant.

The following is from a sermon entitled "Infant Salvation" by the man I consider the greatest expositor of the doctrines of God's amazing grace since the days of the apostles, Charles Haddon Spurgeon:

Before I enter upon that I would make one observation. It has been wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists, that we believe that some little children perish. Those who make the accusation know that their charge is false. I cannot even dare to hope, though I would wish to do so, that they ignorantly misrepresent us. They wickedly repeat what has been denied a thousand times, what they know is not true. In Calvin's advice to Omit, he interprets the second commandment "shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me," as referring to generations, and hence he seems to teach that infants who have had pious ancestors, no matter how remotely, dying as infants are saved. This would certainly take in the whole race. As for modern Calvinists, I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect. Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished, but affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject, but that it is his belief, and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest. We have never taught the contrary, and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, "You may have said so, we never did, and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you be capable of a blush." We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished, but we have believed that they enter into the paradise of God.

It might do you good, Yelsew, as well as your fellow advocates of the false teaching of Arminianism, to read the whole sermon at http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm

So if you repeat your false accusation anymore, Yelsew, then everyone will know without a doubt that you are telling a bald-faced lie.

And while I'm on a roll here, here's a portion from the same sermon about a majority of people being saved because all infants are saved:

All Scripture seems to tenon that heaven will not be a narrow world, that its population will not be like a handful gleaned out of a vintage, but that Christ shall be glorified by ten thousand times ten thousand, whom he hath redeemed with his blood. Now where are they to come from? How small a part of the map could be called Christian! Look at it. Out of that part which could be called Christian, how small a portion of them would bear the name of believer! How few could be said to have even a nominal attachment to the Church of Christ? Out of this, how many are hypocrites, and know not the truth! I do not see it possible, unless indeed the millennium age should soon come, and then far exceed a thousand years, I do not see how it is possible that so vast a number should enter heaven, unless it be on the supposition that infant souls constitute the great majority. It is a sweet belief to my own mind that there will be more saved than lost, for in all things Christ is to have the pre-eminence, and why not in this? It was the thought of a great divine that perhaps at the last the number of the lost would not bear a greater proportion to the number of the saved, than do the number of criminals in gaols to those who are abroad in a properly-conducted state. I hope it may be found to be so. At any rate, it is not my business to be asking, "Lord, are there few that shall be saved?" The gate is strait, but the Lord knows how to bring thousands through it without making it any wider, and we ought not to seek to shut any out by seeking to make it narrower. Oh! I do know that Christ will have the victory, and that as he is followed by streaming hosts, the black prince of hell will never be able to count so many followers in his dreary train as Christ in his resplendent triumph. And if so we must have the children saved; yea, brethren, if not so, we must have them, because we feel anyhow they must be numbered with the blessed, and dwell with Christ hereafter.

So there!

 

[Yelsew]

In Calvin's advice to Omit, he interprets the second commandment "shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me," as referring to generations, and hence he seems to teach that infants who have had pious ancestors, no matter how remotely, dying as infants are saved.

the second commandment,
Exodus 20:4. You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.

This would certainly take in the whole race. As for modern Calvinists, I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect.

We all hope that persons dying in infancy are elect? How can those who are totally depraved be the elect? You do believe that all mankind is totally depraved do you not? You hope that aborted infants are elect? I find it amusing that you consistently fail to see the contradictions in Calvinism. Totally depraved, sinner from the womb, yet the elect of God. WOW!

Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished, but affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject, but that it is his belief, and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest.

Amazing, What scripture?

We have never taught the contrary, and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, "You may have said so, we never did, and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you be capable of a blush." We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished, but we have believed that they enter into the paradise of God.

Well, I believe that infants and pre-infants that die from what ever reason go to be with God, but not for the same reasons. I don't believe in Total Depravity. I don't believe that we are sinful in the womb. I believe that infants are innocent of sin.

You can keep your Spurgeon, he has no better answers than Calvin or Arminius.

 

[Preacher Nathan Knight]

I have seen the questions appear on this board as to whether Christ was a Calvinist or Arminian. I do not believe that He is either. He did not follow after any sect or pre-established doctrine.Why? Because He is the Son of God and in that He is God. He was the doctrine, we are to follow after His teachings and standards that He set for us. You cannot classify Christ. He is what He is.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Pastor Larry,

You again have taken this parable out of context. You said, 'It is a great matter of shouting that he selects even one (cf Luke 15 and the joy in heaven over one sinner that repents).'

Jesus alludes to the idea that even if ninety nine sheep were saved He is going to go out to find even the one lost sinner. This concept of Jesus shows His longing to save all sinners. [Luke 15:4-7] Its not good to make up theology as you go along; exegete my friend, exegete.

'I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, who need no repentance.'

You missed the point. You asked where the joy was in saving some while others go to hell. I replied that the Scripture teaches there is great joy over one that comes to repentance, showing that your thought process was unbiblical. Your reponse here has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I have not made up any theology. I have cited the Scripture that shows great joy over one sinner that comes to repentance. And that was your "honest question."

Here is a question for you: Why do you ask a question and then whine or complain when someone gives you a biblical answer?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Preacher Nathan Knight:
I have seen the questions appear on this board as to whether Christ was a Calvinist or Arminian. I do not believe that He is either. He did not follow after any sect or pre-established doctrine.Why? Because He is the Son of God and in that He is God. He was the doctrine, we are to follow after His teachings and standards that He set for us. You cannot classify Christ. He is what He is.

Your confusion here is more indicative of your recent arrival and your failure to understand the discussion. Arminianism and Calvinism are "pre-established doctrines." They are easy to use labels for broad groupings of theology about soteriology. While the names would not have been used in the first century, the ideas that we are talking about under those names would have been. While I would not call Christ a Calvinist per se, it is clear from Scripture that what he taught was what later came to be known as Calvinism. It is unfortunate that Calvinism got tied up in some other things.

But what we are talking about is doctrine and what the Bible teaches about soteriology.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken the Spurgeonite,

All babies go to Heaven. You well know the reference to King David's deceased baby.

I too, believe in a literal interpretation of all of the Bible including Revelation.

My understanding is that you have skirted the idea that only the 'few' will find eternal life with Jesus Christ. [Matt. 7:14] Jesus has said that 'strait is the gate' and 'narrow is the way.' The New Century Version says, 'But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road.' How can this mean that the majority will enter Heaven?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

It is true that God rejoices over even one sinner who repents. Don't these verses speak to you? If He rejoices over the one sinner who repents, wouldn't He be more than pleased if all find Him or are found of Him? [I Tim. 2:4 & 6] The answer is yes! My continued point is that the ninety-nine of the flock were just/saved and He still went out to get that last sinner. There is more to the parable than you wish to fathom, if you cleave to the human theology of "Calvin's Institutes."

 

[Ray Berrian]

Since World War I and II, the Korean War, Vietnam, Granada, Haiti, and the two wars in Iraq only a few Christians believe there is going to be a great, great influx of saints entering Heaven. 'The war to end all wars' hasn't happened. Billions of souls in China do not know the Lord and in the near east 98-99 % of the people are of the belief of Islam.

And then in the church world the Apostle Paul tells Timothy that ' . . . the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.' We are hardly in a position to bring in your hords of brand new saints.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Preacher Nathan Knight,

Welcome to the Baptist Board. Your opening post is exactly right. Jesus is the standard of our Christian faith. At least what you said was 100% right in counterdistinction to most of the posts entered here.

What we are saying is Calvinism or Arminianism closer to what Christ has given to us in the Bible, the Word of God? From our standpoint, we see Arminianism as much, much closer to His truth offered in holy writ. While we believe in sovereignty we are not willing to go along with the twisted view of God being mechanical and autocratic in His election of souls. "Unconditional Election" seriously erodes the responsibility of human sinners toward God. If God autocratically elects to Heaven and Hell, sinners bare no responsibility for their sin nature or acts of sin. But, the Bible tells us that He ' . . . commands all people everywhere to repent.'[Acts 17:30] The New Century Version says, 'God tells all people in the world to change their hearts and lives. God has set a day that He will judge all the world with fairness, by the man He chose long ago. And God has proved this to everyone by raising that Man from the dead.'

Again, welcome to the discussions.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Pastor Larry,

It is true that God rejoices over even one sinner who repents. Don't these verses speak to you? If He rejoices over the one sinner who repents, wouldn't He be more than pleased if all find Him or are found of Him? [I Tim. 2:4 & 6] The answer is yes! My continued point is that the ninety-nine of the flock were just/saved and He still went out to get that last sinner. There is more to the parable than you wish to fathom, if you cleave to the human theology of "Calvin's Institutes."

Now you are changing the subject Ray. You cannot do that in midstream. You said How can Calvinists speak of Docrtines of Grace when behind the title--God selects the majority for Hell and only saves the relative few? Is this something to shout about?. The biblical response is "Yes, this is something to shout about since the angels in heaven shout over even one." The "relative few" (in your words) are certainly more than one and bring great joy, and great shouting in heaven. Once again, Scripture has shown your doctrine to be incorrect.

Would he be more pleased if all found him? I don't know. He doesn't tell us that answer. But it is clear that all do not find him and yet he is infinitely pleased because his will is being carried out. I don't have all the answers to that. I merely accept what Scripture teaches. I do not feel compelled to go beyond what Scripture says.

While you tell me I need to practice exegesis, I think perhaps you should consider it yourself. You say the 99 are already saved. Yet I think the text does not support that. Remember these people Jesus is talking to are Pharisees (unsaved), who believe that they are the epitome of righteousness. And they are condemning Jesus because he is going after the publicans and sinners, people that these Pharisees consider wicked and certainly not a part of their flock. In 5:31-32, Christ has already addressed these Pharisees are those who believe they are righteous so they don't need a Savior. Now Christ is rebuking them and telling them that he is going after someone who needs to be saved. The 99 are the righteous ones who need no repentance (Pharisees) and the 1 is the sinner which Jesus is bringing to himself. I think this is the better way to take the parable and I think study will bear that out.

Notice also how the shepherd goes out and picks up the sheep and carries it back on his shoulders. In your theology, the most the shepherd could do is go out and appeal with earnest words to the sheep. But the sheep would have to makes its own decision. Even this simple parable has more in it than your theology will allow (and that line is not original with me).

However, none of that has any bearing on the point I made -- namely, that this verse is a clear contradiction of your belief because there is great joy over even one sinner that repents and that is cause for shouting.

As for the so called human doctrines of Calvin's INstitutes, you once again show yourself to be unwilling to listen, even though I have repeatedly told you this. I have not read Calvin's Institutes. My theology is not human theology; it is what I have learned from sitting at the feet of Jesus in his word. Please learn this time. Do not accuse me of being a devoted follower of Calvin. I am not. I am a devoted follower of Jesus Christ and I believe and preach teh things that he preached.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Pastor Larry,

Who was first to inform you that what you believe falls well within the framework of Calvinism?

You may have forgotten from seminary days that you cannot push a parable to the extreme. I think Jesus was giving a hypothetical illustration that He desires that even the one lost sheep would be saved. The ninety-and nine were already in the fold. This obviously is not a real situation otherwise universalism would be correct; and neither of us believe this non-sense.