Christian Bartender?

[onestand]

I've personally challanged this idea of "other people might think, hmm he's a christian and doing such an such", the responses and results I've had were actually not bad as everyone would assume. Most times people do not care, in fact I've come across a few who are pleasantly shocked.

It's fairly easy to tell when one has already consumed a good bit of alcohol and will become drunk if more is served. Many times I've heard people admit they have a buzz going, that should give you a hint.

Pray about it, if you have no conviction about doing so, do it. What's the difference if you bartend at a bar and grill or serve food?

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by BBNewton:
I believe it is reasonable to say that I could serve none of my patrons to the point of drunkenness. But this largely depends on what sort of establishment the bar is.

With all due respect to your ability to discern degrees of drunkenness, the only way to diagnose it is after the fact. There will be people who become drunk in your establishment and it will be the result of your having served them one drink too many. You may be able to stop them from getting drunk to the point of passing out but, there is no way you can predict the exact number of drinks before they are legally, ethically, or morally drunk.

Let's see now, it's not for the priests...
Lev 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying, 9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

It's not for the Nazarite...
Num 6:2 ...When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink...

It's not for fools...
Prov 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

It's not for Kings and Princes...
Prov 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

It's not for alcoholics...
Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

It's not for them that make judgements...
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

It's not for John the Baptist...
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

It IS for the blind, ignorant, dumb, greedy...
Isa 56:10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. 12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

It IS for those who are dying...
Prov 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish,

You certainly have your work cut out for you if you think you can make all of these judgements.

 

[Pete Richert]

I would think hmmmm, and he claims to be a christian.

I know, one time I went to a wedding and there was this dude actually MAKING alchohol. I decided he certianly couldn't be a Christian!!! Good thing I got out of there fast.

 

[BBNewton]

Artimaeous,

I appreciate your Biblical concern over this touchy issue of Christians and alcohol consumption.

However, as a Christian bartender it is not my duty to try to read the inner workings of each individual patron's heart. It is my duty not to contribute to their drunkenness. Just as a waitress can serve food without contributing to gluttony, I say a bartender can serve alcohol without inherently contributing to drunkenness. And after spending thousands of hours in bars serving thousands of patrons, I believe I can do this in a setting (family bar and grill) in which drunkenness breaks the establishment rules anyway.

Jesus provided a large quantity of alcoholic beverages to a wedding party as a testimony to his own divinity. I think one of the reasons he chose to do this with wine was to demonstrate that alcoholic beverages actually are a gift from God and can be used without sin.

You know its interesting, but I've had some of the deepest spiritual conversations over a glass of beer with 'sinners'.


"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." (Luke 7:34)

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
I know, one time I went to a wedding and there was this dude actually MAKING alchohol. I decided he certianly couldn't be a Christian!!! Good thing I got out of there fast.

A quote from one of the guests at the wedding of Cana

 

[BBNewton]

You know everyone, to put things in perspective, I honestly think this debate over alcohol consumption is more cultural than Biblical. German Christians (ie. Martin Luther and bunch) brewed and consumed large quantities of alcoholic beverages for years without much dissention over the issue. Renowned American theologian, R.L. Dabney, actually brewed his own porter (in search of the best, he would say). Do you think French Christians in Paris go into shock when they hear of a fellow Christian sipping wine. I think not. But so many 21st century American Baptists do, run to the hills! run to the hills! Jimmy walked out the liquor store!

Is this debate cultural or Biblical?

ps. Pete Richert, I hope you were just joking.

 

[Marcia]

But many unbelievers are ctitical of Christians anyway. If a Christian files bankruptcy, sues someone, or gets a speeding ticket, their Christianity is questioned. This doesn't make something unprofitable, it only proves that the unbeliever is ignorant of the Word. Alas, so are many Christians.

The fact that many unbelievers are critical anyway should not be an excuse to do things that might not be good. Also, being a bartender is a choice whereas some other things might not be.

As far as it being cultural, yes, I agree that might factor in but I think the person here is talking about being a bartender in the U.S.

I was never a big drinker before I was a believer and I continued to drink beer and wine after becoming a believer. But it bothered me to do it in public and/or with unbelievers around. Once I got into ministry, I decided to give up all drinking because I felt it could possibly be used against me and I didn't want to give the slightest chance to that, and because I did not want alcohol in the home as my son got older. I also did not want him to see me drink it casually as I think alcohol is very powerful. It does not take much to effect your ability to drive at all or to think clearly (I realize that varies with people).

Alcohol in the Bible days was not as strong as it is now. My understanding of it is that it was very diluted and they drank it because the water was not good.

This is an interesting article on wine in the Bible (turn down the volume on your computer unless you like very cheesy music )

Should Christians Drink?
Excerpt:
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine (tirosh) is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

The Hebrew word for harvested grape juice is tirosh and should be translated in every one of its 38 Old Testament occurrences as either fresh grape juice or harvested grape juice. The Authorized Version translated as 'wine' or 'new wine' are both misleading translations. The new wine that is a blessing was the product of the land in its natural state, the grape and its juice. It is unfermented. ==========End excerpt

Article on wine and the Bible by a doctor (no music):

Wine in the Bible
Excerpt:
a. The fact that it was necessary for Paul to advise Timothy to "drink no longer water, but wine," proves conclusively that Timothy was not in the habit of drinking any kind of wine.

b. Paul recommended wine as a medicine for Timothy on account of some weakness of his stomach, and other infirmities. This would not be recommending it for the habitual use of well persons.

c. The wine which Paul recommended was such as would be good for Timothy's stomach, else he would not have advised him to use it. Alcoholic drinks are notoriously bad for even a healthy stomach. They interfere with digestion, and are one of the most prolific causes of dyspepsia. Unfermented wine, on the other hand, has just the opposite properties. It is a most wholesome article, and was much esteemed by the ancients for the very purpose for which Paul recommended wine to Timothy. The conclusion is irresistible, then, that the kind of wine recommended by Paul was the unfermented juice of the grape. This position is confirmed by Athenaeus, who recommended sweet wine "as being very good for the stomach." Paul certainly would not have recommended fermented wine to Timothy, for Pliny, Philo, and Columella, in speaking of fermented wine, say that they produced "headaches, dropsy, madness, and stomach complaints." Who will believe that Paul advised Timothy to use the very article that would cause his stomach to become diseased if it were not already so?=====End of excerpt

 

[mcgyver]

We can debate the virtues/vices and grace/legalism issues all day and never really come to a consensus. I simply would ask this: What kind of example do we wish to set for a lost and dying world? There are many things that I once enjoyed doing, that perhaps in and of themselves were not "that bad". When I became a Christian however, I felt that (as a matter of personal choice) there were certain things that I should not do, in order to honor He who saved me. We are indeed to be salt and light, and I question whether we can do this if the world at large sees no difference between "us and them". Yes, Jesus did turn water into wine, and yes He did eat and socialize with the offscouring of society in His day. I would submit however that He did not do it for any reason other than to seek and save the lost, to proclaim the kingdom of God, to bring salvation. What is your motivation for wanting to tend bar? Is it to honor and serve Jesus Christ? I think that this should be the central question for any Christian in any circumstance, especially when considering job choices (among other things). Remember that the Word tells us to walk circumspectly.....

 

[Pete Richert]

that perhaps in and of themselves were not "that bad". When I became a Christian however, I felt that (as a matter of personal choice) there were certain things that I should not do, in order to honor He who saved me. We are indeed to be salt and light, and I question whether we can do this if the world at large sees no difference between "us and them". Yes, Jesus did turn water into wine, and yes He did eat and socialize with the offscouring of society in His day. I would submit however that He did not do it for any reason other than to seek and save the lost, to proclaim the kingdom of God, to bring salvation. What is your motivation for wanting to tend bar? Is it to honor and serve Jesus Christ? I think that this should be the central question for any Christian in any circumstance, especially when considering job choices (among other things). Remember that the Word tells us to walk circumspectly.....

Colorful language. So when Jesus drank, he was only doing something that wasn't "that bad". There are lots of things that the world does that I do to. Hard to differate us on it. So I will now

stop wearing clothes
stop driving cars
stop eating at McDonalds
stop drinking Pepsi, . . . or water
stop using the internet (lot of bad stuff on that)
quit my job as an engineer
stop having children

Strange thing is, Jesus didn't do any of those (except the water, yet He drank.) So if I am going to give up drinking, I REALLY better give up the rest to!!!

 

[Pete Richert]

By the way, just so you can't get your panties all in a wad about hidden motives and me seaking pleasure and such, I'll let you know that I don't drink. But since I set my standards of true obedience to God from of the Bible, I will never condemn anyone for drinking. The Bible calls it a blessing, though it gives strict condemnation for drunkeness which I would confront a brother over. I choose not to drink not because I think it breaks some Biblical norm but because I think alchohol is disgusting.

 

[BBNewton]

mcgyver,

A well put position and thank you for reminding me to remember to honor and serve Christ in all that I do. How can I honor Christ as a construction worker? How can I honor Christ as a sheetmetal designer? How can I honor Christ as a son, a brother, a boyfriend? How can I honor Christ as a bartender? It is impossible for me to honor Christ in anything I do except by the mighty grace of God.

But back to the topic, only God knows the motivations of my hear. With that being said, nobody has yet Biblically shown that serving alcohol is inherently un Christian. I've been shown that serving (or drinking, or perhaps even carrying a brown bag of soda water that might be mistaken for alcohol) may be definitely un 21st century American Baptist, but not un Christian.

 

[Gib]

Be a bartender, work for the cable co, drive a coors truck. Sounds like you have already made your decision and are waiting for someone to provide specific scripture to show evidence that it is wrong. I don't think there is specific scripture telling us not to be bartenders. Only God knows the motivations of your heart. Let Him judge you.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by BBNewton:
It is my duty not to contribute to their drunkenness.

It is your job as a bartender to serve people alcohol until you see they have committed the sin of drunkenness and then cut them off. How is that not contributing to their drunkenness? My quotes of scripture were all about strong drink, which is consistently condemned by the Bible. Can I assume that you will be serving strong drink?

I believe I can do this in a setting (family bar and grill) in which drunkenness breaks the establishment rules anyway.

The only reason for the rule is that it is sometimes broken and it is those "sometimes" that I am talking about.

...alcoholic beverages actually are a gift from God and can be used without sin.

Jesus made wine therefore all alcoholic beverages are OK is a huge leap in logic and quite contrary to scripture. Jesus made wine therefore serving people till they are drunk is OK (I know... you will stop them just after they get drunk)

You know its interesting, but I've had some of the deepest spiritual conversations over a glass of beer with 'sinners'.

You cannot have a deep spiritual conversation with the lost. You may feel like you are but, that just may be the beer talking. (Just a friendly nudge)

I Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[freeatlast]

Originally posted by BBNewton:
Hi everyone,

Before I became a Christian, I worked in bars for a few years. I managed two and bartended in eight. Recently, I decided that I would like to bartend one evening a week for fun and extra cash. A Christian friend of mine insists that bartending is inherently sinful. Is this true?

From my experience, I think it is reasonable to divide bars into two different types. The first type is a place where people go to sin (i.e. get drunk, do drugs, look for sex etc.) The second type is a more of a bar and grill style (i.e. Chili’s Bar and Grill has a strict no serving to the point of drunkenness policy, a smoke-free environment, and a family setting). I think it is not fitting for a
Christian to work in the type one establishment. The latter type, however, I believe is an excellent work environment for anyone.

My thinking on the issue is this: Is it sinful for a Christian to drink alcohol? Nope. Is it sinful for a Christian to serve alcohol? Nope. (Jesus created wine for people to serve and drink at the wedding party–we have no reason to believe that the beverage that was stated to the best of the party was some sort of bubbly non alcoholic concoction that some so insist). So is it inherently sinful for a Christian to serve or drink alcoholic beverages? No. I believe I could work as a bartender in a family style bar and grill as a confessing Christian in good conscience.

What do you think?

Ben

You seem to have made up yuor mind and now just want conformation. First you made some statements that are way to strong. Like is is sin to drink. it could be yes. If you can drink in faith it is not. That means you know full well that God want sthis in your life. Read Romans 14. Also we are to present our bodies as a living sacrafice. Do you think you would find the lord in a bar serving drinks. I seriously doubt it. Neither do I think that the Spirit would lead one to such a job. There is just no way to honor the Lord and bring Him glory in such.
Next this seems like a love of money issue and not a real must. That means there is sin here. You might want to re-think your position on this. Christians need to learn to sacrafice for the Lord and not seek the first thing out theior. How about manual labor or something like thta. it ia certainly honorable and no one can question your motives and Chrsit could be honored in that.

 

[BBNewton]

Everyone,

When I started this thread I was moderately certain that the Bible does not prohibit serving or drinking alcoholic beverages. Upon studying all the posts, now I'm more certain of my position. I have never discussed these things with fellow Christians, and I was unsure of how it would go. Nobody put forth a Biblical arguement that was coherent, just personal opinions based upon cultural persuasions. But I'm not looking for a conflict with anyone. Thanks everyone for your input and God bless.

 

[Gib]

You bring a topic that most Christians would take a stance against to a debate forum, there is going to be some conflict.

If you are certain of your position, ask God what he thinks and if He gives you the green light, go for it.

 

[Marcia]

When I started this thread I was moderately certain that the Bible does not prohibit serving or drinking alcoholic beverages.

Strong drink is prohibited in the Bible. I assume you will be serving hard liquor, not just beer and wine?

Someone mentioned the cultural conditions of Europe where drinking is more common on an everyday basis. If you're going to take in the cultural conditions of Europe, or the U.S., then you have take in the cultural conditons in Biblical times when wine was basically more commonly served and was in diluted form since they did not drink water.

I am not a legalist -- I do not think it's a sin for Christians who feel okay with it to drink wine or beer moderately. But our witness and influence on others is a Biblical issue, and as many pointed out, that is something to consider.

It's not a question of whether it is wrong or right to serve alcohol, but whether or not this is the best job you can get that would honor your life for the Lord (someone else pointed this out).

 

[freeatlast]

You say that no one has made thew point based on scripture. I say that they have. You are just rejecting them. Marcia pointed out that strong drink is not of the Lord and that is scripture.
Also you seem to be trying to justify this by using cultural laws. Well what if certain drugs were legal here as they are in some countries. Would you serve them up in a bar just because there is no direct scripture speaking about or against it? Like I said earlier you have made up your mind and are looking for support not truth. However I still suggest that you look for another job. You sort of remind me of an abortion doctor or nurse who justifies there practice also. If you really want the truth GET ANOTHER JOB!

 

[av1611jim]

Newton;
Two things to begin with.
1) Alcohol POISONS the body. That is why you get a 'buzz' from it. That is also why people DIE from it. Would God want you serving poison to folks? People drink for the buzz. Period. Some may say they do not but then why do they drink fermented wine rather than unfermented wine? HMMM? Or 'corn squeezins' BEFORE it has a chance to ferment?
2) While Paul may say "all things are lawful but not all are expedient": my question is this. It is NOT a question of 'is it ok?', but rather, should I do it? Just because it may seem ok, does not mean that it is something which SHOULD be done by a Cristian.

Many have already given you plenty of Scripture. They all speak of wine or strong drink (in any form you wish to interpret it as).
Here are a couple which have NOT been mentioned.

1 Thes. 5:21-23
21."Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22. Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Cor. 7:1-2
1."Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse oursevles from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2.Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man."

A few thoughts...
First, in reference to the first Scripture. Is it GOOD to knowingly serve a poison to people who could be greatly affected by it,(maybe even to their detriment)? CAN the fact you are a Christian who seeks to tend bar and serve alcohol take on the APPEARANCE of evil to anyone who may observe you? Can you really claim to be a "sanctified" bartender?
Secondly, in reference to the second Scripture. Is tending bar while at the SAME time claiming the name of Christ actually what Paul calls "perfecting holiness in the fear of God"?
Is it possible to wrong someone by serving them one to many drinks? Is it possible to corrupt someone by serving them alcohol? Is it possible to defraud someone through alcohol leading them to believe that one who is Christian doesn't have to "be holy, for I am Holy"?
No man lives unto himself. We are bought with a price. The one who PAID that price owns you. Period. He also died for every wet-brained alcoholic of all time now and forever. Can you honestly say you are honoring Him by serving one of the very poisons He died for?

To paraphrase Smoky Bear, "Only you can prevent misunderstandings about who you are and WHOSE you are."
Jim

 

[blackbird]

Now here's what gets me---not even an issue of "does the Bible say . . ."---but the issue:

Out of all the zillions of available jobs out there---the only job available is a "Bartender?"

Personally----given the option between being a Bartender and a Garbage man----I'd ride the back of Waste Management trucks all day long---at least I'd be pickin' up people's garbage and takin' it to the dump---and not pickin' up people and takin' them to the dump! Understand?? Cause thats where people head when they drink---their lives are headed to the dump!

Brother David