Christian be a Union rep.?

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Originally posted by exscentric:
I Pet. 2.18 seems to tell the servant to do a good job whether it is a good or bad master. "Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 19 For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully."


There may be a strike in the future, but even I don't think the union is quite THAT stupid right now.
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Huge difference between employee and employer, and slave and master. Please tell me you dont equate 1 Peter 2:18 to this.

 

"Huge difference between employee and employer, and slave and master. Please tell me you dont equate 1 Peter 2:18 to this."

II Tim. 3.16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Equate, no, but we probably need to get some principles for life from them. The two relationships are not equal, but quite similar.

I would remind you that my original post related to strike, not the WHOLE of what unions are. Nor, have I said I think a believer shouldn't be in a union that I recall.

If a servant is to do well by his master, certainly an employee should do well by his employer - both the servant and employee are actually serving Christ anyway and that is the point where the two are the same - or should be in my mind.

 

Bingo! It the same as women wishing to be the head.

 

There may be some unions that are formed for the good of the employees and for the good of the company, but I have never heard of one. The sad part is so many Christians have no choice but to join a union in order to get, or hold a job. So I cannot fault those at all, or those that become union representatives. The sad part is that some employers make it necessary for a union to be formed in their company, but there are many good companies brought to their knees for the excessive demands of the union, and employees unable to look beyond the nose on their face. All union members do not think alike, but most bite the hand that feeds them, not realizing until too late that they are sealing their own doom by demanding more than the company can absorb.

Ford and GM will go down the drain, unless they are able to restructure their contracts with the unions. Wal-Mart has to fight for its life when it shouldn’t have to. Once the media, the socialists, and union’s convince employees they are worth more than their skills call for, another success story will be brought down. Of course this is only my opinion.

An employee cannot obey all his employer wishes, and also all a union wishes. This forces the employee into the unreasonable position of choosing one or the other. I believe the employees are put in this position because of the presence of the union that serves to divide employees loyalty to the one who pays them. ituttut

 

ituttus writes:
Ford and GM will go down the drain, unless they are able to restructure their contracts with the unions.
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I'm in a construction union and must profess my ignorance on manufacturing unions. However, lets look quickly at what unions have brought about,
1) the 40 hour work week with time and a half guarranteed for every hour worked over.
2) The minimun wage, such as it is.
3) Child labor laws. No 10 yr old kids making Martha Stewart sweaters and missing school.
4) OSHA. Oh yea. I've had my fights with these guys. But I havent had to bury a co-worker for a preventable fall for many years.

Now I'm sure many will come back with downsides to unions such as, mob infiltration, rediculous work rules, closed shops, etc. Guilty as charged. The company I work for hired me. The union didnt. My loyalty lies with them. But if we are going to look at the restrictions unions have brought about, we also have to look at the benefits.
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ituttut also writes: Wal-Mart has to fight for its life when it shouldn’t have to.
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As a union member (who has family working for Wally), that just breaks my heart.

P.S. Hey Arron, Still waiting for that scriptual support.

 

Sure. Our pastor is bi-vocational and works for a company with an active union. He is in the union. Small company, small town ... perhaps that also plays in.

PJ

 

The reasons for starting Unions were very much in line with many christian principles. And clearly if the employee/employer relationships followed NT guidlines, there would be no need for such action. Unions have moved a long way from that original purpose in most cases, but so have the companies.

today's corporations if they are public, are forced to resort to ridiculous cost cutting and accounting practices in order to satisfy the Wall Street folks who are making the real money from companies like GM, DCX, Ford, etc.

I know many christians (being in the Motor City) that are members of unions, and I think their actions personally are more important than what their union is doing. There is even the possibility that they can have a positive influence on their union. It really is a personal decision based on the particular situation.

Its part of the culture here in Detroit. We refer to our men's prayer breakfast time as the "Ironworkers Local" meeting. Iron Sharpening Iron and all that. Again, the original purpose for Unions dovetails nicely with what we are trying to do in helping the men of our church support each other and foster accountability in prayer.

 

Never thought I would join a union and was very much aginst them until I started teaching. What I noticed was that it was the teachers who held the administration up to a higher standard without fear of reprisal. The teachers were not even part of a union until the principal and superintendent (who had ben there about 25 years) retired at the same time. They were good friends and treated the teachers well. The next principal they hired was excellent but the superintendent was lousy and just wanted a bigger pay check. It was the unoinized teachers who put pressure to spend money on the students. The superintendent came to the teachers one year I was teaching and told us we might have to take a one percent pay decrease. One of the teachers asked him if would be willing to receive the same decrease. He told us that was a different issue. The teachers laughed and the meeting was dismissed. He had received an 8 percent increase and was asking the teachers to take a one percent decrease while at the same time the school was growing in attendance.

That superintendent caused such trouble that even 15 years later they do not have the money they should to maintain the buildings. Before he came the school was in great shape and they had plenty of money for good programs.

 

"The reasons for starting Unions were very much in line with many christian principles."

That begs for some information on both Union and the Word.

 

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1 Timothy 5:18
For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages

Luke 10:7
"Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house.

And in contrast:
Matthew 20:11-16

11"When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,

12saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

13"But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?

14'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.

15'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last shall be first, and the first last."

And,
2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.

Cant find much about workers banding together for the common good, (although under Roman occupation it would have been tricky to say the least), or against the right of a businessman to spend his money as he wishes.

 

exscentric writes:

Equate, no, but we probably need to get some principles for life from them. The two relationships are not equal, but quite similar
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Agreed. And many workers, union and non-union try to live by them every day on the job. But they are just that, "principles". Not a slave/master relationship.

 

Posted by Aaron:
No Christian should be involved in a labor union.

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Quite a blanket statement thrown on probably millions of Christians Aaron. Still waiting for that scriptual support.

 

First of all, the word servant is a broad term not meaning slaves only (by law bound to and the property of another), but all household servants whether for hire or apprenticeship. And so you see this exhortations to servants:

1Pe 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

So even if you don't agree that union membership is denied to all Christians, you would have to agree that there could be no godly butler or maid union.

Second, by extension, even if you are not a live-in servant, you are a servant unless you're an owner. In your job, do you not provide a service for the owner (or owners - especially if it is a publicly traded company)? Unless you are working for yourself, you're working for someone else, and that makes you a servant.

That brings us to the other principle, and that is the principle of ownership. You have already posted Christ's parable of the workers, and you see the principle illuminated there quite well. Once you're hired, you agreed to perform a service for the compensation that was offered.

But even those who are compelled to service are not given the right to murmer about their wages. Notice John the Baptists admonition to the Roman soldiers:

Luke 3:14.

No where will you find a Scriptural admonition to withold work in an effort to extort higher wages from an employer. Extortioners have no place in the Kingdom of Heaven, 1 Cor. 6:10.

The Christian first of all seeks his provision from his heavenly father, and if he is being cheated by his employer does not oppose him, but cries out to God, James 5:1-5.

I could go on and on, for the Scriptures are repleat with admonitions diametrically opposed to the entire philosophy and justification for labor unions. All one needs do is read them.

Last of all, if revolt is denied those in the worst of estates--a slave in the true sense of the word--how much more would it be denied those who are at liberty to leave the situation?

 

Agree there are excess’s, and they are on both ends. Moderation in all things. ituttut

 

"Do not be unlawful or show hated towards your boss or do him harm."

Hummm, haven't seen much of that when seeing strikes on the news - YA RIGHT!

Let's see

breaking windows
cracking heads
trashing cars
intimidation
hate
blocking traffic
disrupting traffic
loss of business
loss of product
and the list goes on and on and on ......

Oh, I know that is the media bias - right?

 

"exscentric writes:

Equate, no, but we probably need to get some principles for life from them. The two relationships are not equal, but quite similar
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Agreed. And many workers, union and non-union try to live by them every day on the job. But they are just that, "principles". Not a slave/master relationship."

I am not speaking of everyday - no arguement that believers live their lives, but I have spoken of strikes - have never seen a strike that seemed Christian in any way. Not sure I could participate in a strike and feel comfy.

 

rivers1222 said "Cant find much about workers banding together for the common good, "

Doesn't seem you found anything about demanding of the employer a list of wants either.

Doesn't seem you found anything about throwing a tantrum if you don't get what you want either.

Doesn't seem you found anything about acting hatefully when you are doing your demanding (strike) either.

Doesn't seem you found anything about extracting dues from people that aren't even in the union either.

Granted all men are to work for their eats - the worker is worthy of being paid - but where does Scripture give anything close to Union principles? Nothing you gave shows the worker demanding what the pay is or other goodies that they might want for that matter.