Christian Civil Disobedience

[TexasSky]

Stefan,

I am sorry, but I do not understand the point you are trying to make. Can you elaborate?

I agree ny death is nothing, but to me that is all the more reason I should follow Christ's example and behave in as much of a Christ-like manner as possible during the trying times of life.

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Stefan,

I am sorry, but I do not understand the point you are trying to make. Can you elaborate?

I agree ny death is nothing, but to me that is all the more reason I should follow Christ's example and behave in as much of a Christ-like manner as possible during the trying times of life.

No problem. I'll elaborate.

I'm saying that Jesus' calm and refusal to resist were directly related to his mission as the Christ.

We should strive to be Christ-like, but we can't really put ourselves in his shoes in this scenario. We won't be in a position to fulfill all the scriptures.

For example, Christ subjected himself to undeserved punishment, while Paul used his Roman citizenship to avoid difficulty and punishment (Acts 16:37, 22:25).

My point is simply this: Don't pattern your actions completely after Christ's in Gethsemane.

 

[ktn4eg]

I would like to pose another scenario (which, hopefully, will never happen).

Suppose that the United States would declare war on Israel. You are Christian serving in the US Military. Would you obey the "lawful orders" of your commanders and kill Israeli soldiers that were defending their homeland against the invading US forces?

Again, please supply specific scriptures for your position (NT or OT, doesn't matter).

 

[StefanM]

Yes, in an act of war, I would do my duty as a soldier.

Col 3:22 (ESV) Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

Notwithstanding, I do not believe the secular nation of Israel is of any theological importance--I am not a dispensationalist. If I were a soldier, I would kill any nation's soldiers if my nation were at war with that nation. I would NOT kill civilians, but that is a different matter.

 

[ktn4eg]

What about the Christian soldiers who served in Vietnam?

A Vietnamese child walks in to a American encampment with a live bomb strapped to his body that was placed there by the Viet Cong.

If you were one of those soldiers, would you kill that civilian child if that were the only alternative to having that bomb explode and thus kill or injure your fellow soldiers?

 

[Ancora Imparo]

I like ktn4eg's questions a lot. Sometimes hypothetical questions can be a waste of time, but other times, whether you can answer them or not, they really make you think. They can also serve to show the complexity of our lives here on earth--and why we need Our Lord to guide us through it all.
What follows are not my answers but more questions:

1)The Fugitive Slave Law Question
I liked this one because, at first glance, you will probably get one of two very quick answers: Of course, I would help the slave escape-slavery is wrong. Or, of course, I would have to return him to his master--I would have to obey the laws in effect at that time.
So--is slavery morally wrong? I think so, although I have no explicit scripture to back up my belief. Nor to back my belief that polygamy is wrong. And I don't believe it is wrong simply because it is against the law. I would fight to prevent either slavery or polygamy from ever being brought back.
Was slavery always wrong in the past? God, while giving commands on proper treatment of slaves, and proper attitudes for slaves, never spoke against the institution of slavery in either the Old or New Testament.
If it was OK then, but not now---was it OK in the early 19th century?
Was the slave running away to avoid punishment for a crime, to gain freedom, because he was heartbroken at being separated from his wife and children, or because his master was threatening to kill him?

2)The law against speaking against the Adams Administration:
This law clearly violates constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech. In our system of government, unconstitutional laws are usually retracted by the process of challenging them in court, through the system of review and appeal. But in order for this to happen, unless I am mistaken, usually someone has to violate the law in order for a case to be brought before the court for review. Does this mean that Believers are not allowed, by scripture, to enter into this process of challenging unconstitutional laws because to do so is not submitting to God appointed authority?

3)Christian soldiers ordered to fight in wars they do not support (I generalized the question about fighting against Israel):
Did the soldier voluntarily sign up to serve his country? Or was he drafted by an evil regime and finds himself fighting those seeking to liberate his country or prevent it from commiting genocide? In either case, what is he to do if he is ordered by his commanding officer to commit a war crime? (Killing armed, attacking civilians, in self defense, even children, would be a tragedy but not a war crime.) What if the order came from the Commander-In-Chief? I doubt 'I was just following orders' will work any better as a defense before the Judgement Seat than it did before the judges at Nuremberg.

4)And here's my own to add: What would you do if the law required you to take, or administer to your children, drugs or vaccines that you had determined were seriously detrimental to physical and/or mental health? What if you were in the military and ordered to take these drugs or vaccines?

Man! Things sure can get complicated! I am so grateful to my Lord that He has sent us His Spirit, our Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth to guide us through this minefield! He will show us the Way, he will make a Way---He IS the WAY!

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths" Proverbs 3:5-6
"Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." Isaiah 30:20-21
"I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever---the Spirit of Truth." John 14:16
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth". John 16:13

Praise God! He guides us through the complex issues of life with the truth of Scripture and the Spirit of Truth to guide us.

 

[TexasSky]

Stefan,

Thank you for the elbaoration. I have to say though, that I still believe we were meant to follow Christ's example. At that time his words to his followers were "Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

It was important to Christ that people understand His message was about serving God, not gaining human power. The bible, from the Old Testament, to the New Testament, instructs the followers of God, time and time again, to keep God's law without giving those around them reason to despise God because of them. If they ate different foods, they were to do so without making a scene. If they prayed, they were to pray to honor God, not to call attention to themselves. When they did stand up to authority, they did it in respectful ways to the authorities.

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Stefan,

Thank you for the elbaoration. I have to say though, that I still believe we were meant to follow Christ's example. At that time his words to his followers were "Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

It was important to Christ that people understand His message was about serving God, not gaining human power. The bible, from the Old Testament, to the New Testament, instructs the followers of God, time and time again, to keep God's law without giving those around them reason to despise God because of them. If they ate different foods, they were to do so without making a scene. If they prayed, they were to pray to honor God, not to call attention to themselves. When they did stand up to authority, they did it in respectful ways to the authorities.

I agree with everything you say. I just was arguing that we should not passively allow ourselves to be killed if there is a reasonable way to get out of it.--in this case, act like Paul, for he did nothing wrong.

 

[ktn4eg]

Just a comment on my views of "Biblical Slavery" as compared to "New World Slavery."

As I see it (this is just my opinion based on my limited readings on the "OT Economy"), slavery as mentioned in the OT was brought about primarily for two reasons:

1) Hebrew slaves were made so usually due to their family's poverty. While there may have been many reasons for that poverty, most of the time such "slavery" was only for a limited period of time (i.e., either until that family got out of their poverty-stricken condition, or upon the year of Jubilee when all such Hebrew slaves were supposed to be released. This also would have taken place on a more limited scale every seventh ["sabbath"] year.).

2) Non-Hebrew slaves were usually those of an enemy nation that were captured during times of warfare. As best I can tell, the Israelites were under no particular obligation to release these people (although they were not to ABUSE them either). Much of the "manual labor" in the construction of Solomon's Temple was probably done by such slaves.

While the Bible nowhere specifically condemns either type of slavery, one should also keep in mind that both of these cases differed considerably from the motives and means of how most of the slaves came to the New World.

Slavery in the NT.

Again, the Bible nowhere condemns slavery as such.

Both the Greeks (and I would here also include any "Hellenistic Jews") and the Romans had slaves. While how they may have acquired these slaves may have varied, most of them were, no doubt, the result of being captured during times of military conquest--similar to #2 above.

The term "bond slave" that the Apostle Paul used in his writings came from an aspect of slavery that was practiced during his time. In this case, a slave was set free by his master; yet, out of a deep love of and a desire to serve that master, this slave willingly retained his status as a slave and was voluntarily "bonded" to his master. (What a beautiful picture of what Christ did for us---and what we ought to be to Him as a result of our emancipation as slaves to sin!)

Some have suggested that the book of Philemon shows that the Holy Spirit, writing through Paul's words, would PREFER that there be a relenting of slavery based on what Paul wrote to Philemon regarding his "fugitive slave" Onesimus.

Again, these are just my opinions on how slavery in the Bible seems to differ considerably from the slavery that was practiced in the New World.

 

[Ancora Imparo]

Again, these are just my opinions on how slavery in the Bible seems to differ considerably from the slavery that was practiced in the New World.

Interesting observations.

My Christian great-great grandfather freed his slaves before emancipation under the conviction that slavery was wrong.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 5:25-26 (KJV1611):
Agree with thine aduersarie quickly, whiles thou art in the way
with him: least at any time the aduersarie deliuer thee to the iudge,
and the iudge deliuer thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Uerily I say vnto thee, thou shalt by no meanes
come out thence, till thou hast payd the vttermost farthing.

IMO if a Christian commits Civil Disobedience, that Christin
may receive the gift of martyrdom, suffering for the sake of Jesus.