Christian first then ?

And yet the chair is right there under you holding you up, regardless of what you believe about it. This was the point I was trying to make earlier with the comparison to eternal security.

 

If that priest is a Christian then he has the Holy Spirit living inside of him, right?

OK, then the Holy Spirit is telling him to do the following:

Worship Idols

That he can transform wine and bread into the literal body and blood of Christ

Tradition and Scripture are an equal authority

You must confess your sins to him

Your soul must be cleansed in a place called purgatory when you die

The "church" was built on the apostle Peter not Christ

Remember now, he is a "Christian" and has the Holy Spirit living inside of him.

He can never marry

The pope is the vicar od Christ on earth

Maybe we all better examine what Spirit is living inside of us.

 

You forgot the Pope speaking ex cathedra. A couple of years ago the RCC declared that in a case where there appeared to be a contradiction between the three the Pope was the most authoritative followed by tradition. Not surprisingly the Bible was last.

BrianT, What can possibly be more dividing or more important as a distinctive between true believers and false professors than the means of salvation? Our view are mutually exclusive. It is either by works through the authority of a man made religion or it is by grace through faith. We are warned not to join with those who follow false doctrines.

 

Brian I think you fail to recognize a significant thing. Just because a Catholic may say they believe in the trinity and work of Christ doesn't grant them heaven.

We are really good at over simplifying things sometimes... for example If all I asked was the question " Do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith? " Most catholics would probably agree. But...

When you ask them how they get that grace, and what they are placing their faith in, here's what most will tell you.

First: They believe that you obtain cetain so called graces by observing sacrements. So grace stops being a gift from God, but rather an earned reward.

Second: They will tell you that no one person can have saving faith without the faith of the rest of the church. So in other words, they are placing their faith and hope in the faith and hope of the church to get them to heaven. So faith in Chirst can no longer be a personal relationship, but must first go through the church.

Third: They will say that they believe in what Christ accomplished on the cross, but they will say that that wasn't enough to accomplish their salvation alone. They need what Christ did and......... instead of what Christ did alone.

Now brother, if you yourself don't see a problem with this, then maybe you don't understand just how terrible this really is, and if so, may you yourself need some counsel on how a person goes to heaven.

[ September 13, 2002, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: A voice crying in the wilderness ]

 

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Why do people always want to put disclaimers on these verses???

 

BrianT, are those the only passages about salvation?

Like Saddam's chances of staying dictator till he dies, I am out.

 

I never cared much for english either, let me say it mathematically......

Let A = Grace through sacraments
Let B = My faith though the faith of the church

A + B = HELL

Let C = Grace the gift of God
Let D = My personal faith in Christ

C + D = HEAVEN

Do you know what the greatest thing about math and the Bible is.... they both deal with absolute truths.

Out like a ninth grade algebra student.

[ September 13, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: A voice crying in the wilderness ]

 

Nope. But those are the "fundamentals".

???? What do you mean? Do you have to believe in the "chair alone" in order to sit on it? If you hold onto handlebars like you mentioned, does the chair go away???

 

BrianT, let me ask you a direct question,

"What does believing in Jesus mean?"

 

I sort of addressed this at the bottom of the first page of this thread:

- believing Jesus is the Son of God
- believing he died for the sins of the world, and rose again conquering death.

 

Good answer!

Let me ask you a second question, "What if I said I believed your reply ( and I do ), but I also beleived ( and I don't ) that my beleif in what Christ did was not sufficient by itself to save me. But that I could not truly be saved if I also didn't join a church, and if I were not baptized?"

"Wouldn't that be saying that I believed your statement was true, but I wasn't trusting in it ( the work of Christ alone on the cross ) to be sufficient to take me to heaven?" Would I really be believing in Jesus, as the Bible says we must do to be saved?

[ September 15, 2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: VoiceInTheWilderness ]

 

Well,voice you have just described legalism and most likely you are unsaved. Thsi si the fine line that the Church of Christ often cross. Are they saved before they hit the water? No, so is their trust in Jesus or in the water? They believe they have to work to keep it so is it their works or His work that they really trust in? If anything but Christ alone they are not saved. They are trusting in wrong things. Being circumcised, baptized and galvanized will not save you only Him! Now some of these folks are saved because they truly trusted Christ and were only taught the other after the fact and many leave the COC after they start studying the Word for themselves.

 

Voice, it is easy to generalize, but much harder (impossible) to judge the heart and beliefs of an individual. You may feel qualified to do this, but I certainly don't.

Having said that, I don't precisely know the answer to you question, and am content to let God deal with each case individually. Again, I refer you back to the chair analogy that someone else brought up: if you're sitting in a chair, but also hold onto some handlebars, the chair isn't negated. Likewise, if eternal security is true (which I don't think it is), not believing in it does not negate it. So, to answer your question as best I can, my response would be: no, it doesn't matter that some may also believe in their church. This may be wrong, but it is in addition to what has already saved them, I don't see how it negates it.

 

I wish people would read a post more carefully before making such comments.

[ September 15, 2002, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: VoiceInTheWilderness ]

 

I believe people can genuinely be saved anytime that they hear the gospel, but the question is, do they really hear it.

You see if they hear that Jesus died, was buried, and rose again and they place their trust in that and that alone to get them to heaven then great, praise the Lord another sinner has just been saved.

But if they hear that and something else that is supposed to accompany it, then they are trusting in something other that Christ alone... ie; Baptism plus Christ, or Church plus Christ.

BrianT I hope this has helped you in some degree, and anyone else who maybe has never considered just how terribly dangerous false teaching about salvation can be.

As for Maverick.... I think his heart's right, but he just needs to learn how to read more carefully.

Out like a bowl of soggy cereal.

 

I am a catholic. That is, I hold to the holy catholic faith, once for all delivered unto the saints (which includes Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc.). However, I am not a Roman Catholic (there is a great difference).

The Roman Catholic Church is a false church. They officially teach that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. No Roman Catholic would deny that. The Reformation added the small word "alone" within that phrase, and that is a huge difference. Salvation is through grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Period. Anyone who denies this denies the Gospel - and may he/she be accursed (see what Paul said in Galatians 1 if you think this is too harsh.... he said it twice, I only said it once.)

Rev. G